Andy Peters Messages: 8728 Registered: April 2004 Location: Tucson, AZ
Has No Life Contrarian
If this venue is on your itinerary, you need to bring in real production. To say that the installed Meyer rig is "woefully inadequate" would be the epitome of generous.
It sucks. Holy fuck, it made me want to jump off of the balcony. The sound was consistent: sucked EVERYWHERE.
Skip this place. Really. "This isn't some upside down inverted Socratic method where you throw out your best guess answers and I correct your work." -- JR
"On the Internet, nobody can hear you mix a band."
Maybe he doesn't blame the over the top security, his lousy "in the pen" location on the floor and the overpriced beer on the sound guys but he agrees that it's a sucky venue for a live music show."I've lived through some terrible things in my life, some of which actually happened."
— Mark Twain
David Luscombe Messages: 120 Registered: August 2005 Location: Australia
Has No Life
Andy Peters wrote on Tue, 24 November 2009 05:46
If this venue is on your itinerary, you need to bring in real production. To say that the installed Meyer rig is "woefully inadequate" would be the epitome of generous.
It sucks. Holy fuck, it made me want to jump off of the balcony. The sound was consistent: sucked EVERYWHERE.
Skip this place. Really.
so what was the rig? obviously Meyer but what models and how was it deployed that made it "suck".GARBAGE IN IS GARBAGE OUT
Lee Brenkman Messages: 1948 Registered: April 2004 Location: Oakland CA
Has No Life
David Luscombe wrote on Mon, 23 November 2009 13:52
so what was the rig? obviously Meyer but what models and how was it deployed that made it "suck".
Andy is on his way home and I'm sure he can detail the system later if he wishes.
Here's a picture he posted from his phone:
If you look carefully on the far right side you will see, all painted white, a pair of CQ trap boxes, than a bit above them three small line array boxes then above that near the top three more.
This venue has one or more balconies and I'm guessing the "split" line array was meant to cover those balconies with the minimum number of cabinets.
But deployed like that there is not a long enough line to really control the vertical dispersion nor is the number of boxes adequate for bands like Sonic Youth and the Feelies in a venue that size. Coverage to the area directly in front of the stage is non existent and from the reported comments on the on line review also non existent under the balconies at the back of the main floor seating.
As I've said elsewhere, this system MIGHT work for the stand up comedy shows but is certainly not enough "rig for the gig" for shows like Andy's.
Meyer makes good speakers but there just aren't enough of them in the right places to rock this venue.
David Luscombe Messages: 120 Registered: August 2005 Location: Australia
Has No Life
yep definatly feeling for you now. must say though i would hate to be the house tech and have to put up with that and not be able to do anything about it.GARBAGE IN IS GARBAGE OUT
John T. Cotton Messages: 46 Registered: April 2004 Location: Buffalo, New York
Should Get Out More
My condolences dude. I think I'd sooner shoot myself than try to pull that off. Hope the artists knew where to place the blame. I've had similarly deployed PAs fail with my three input acoustic artist, let alone Rock-N-Roll.John T. Cotton The Frugal Audio Guy
www.FrugalAudio.com
Charlie Zureki Messages: 3801 Registered: April 2008 Location: Detroit Area
Has No Life
David Luscombe wrote on Mon, 23 November 2009 20:07
yep definatly feeling for you now. must say though i would hate to be the house tech and have to put up with that and not be able to do anything about it.
Not pretending to know the details, but, maybe IT IS the House Tech 's idea of a nice deployment of Speakers.... (His Idea)
This Venue needs a "get your shit together" email champaign...
Andy Peters Messages: 8728 Registered: April 2004 Location: Tucson, AZ
Has No Life Contrarian
Charlie Zureki wrote on Mon, 23 November 2009 21:58
David Luscombe wrote on Mon, 23 November 2009 20:07
yep definatly feeling for you now. must say though i would hate to be the house tech and have to put up with that and not be able to do anything about it.
Not pretending to know the details, but, maybe IT IS the House Tech 's idea of a nice deployment of Speakers.... (His Idea)
The house crew had nothing to do with how it was installed. They just have to deal with it.
Quote:
This Venue needs a "get your shit together" email champaign...
It needs to be razed.
-a"This isn't some upside down inverted Socratic method where you throw out your best guess answers and I correct your work." -- JR
"On the Internet, nobody can hear you mix a band."
Andy Peters Messages: 8728 Registered: April 2004 Location: Tucson, AZ
Has No Life Contrarian
Lee Brenkman wrote on Mon, 23 November 2009 16:47
David Luscombe wrote on Mon, 23 November 2009 13:52
so what was the rig? obviously Meyer but what models and how was it deployed that made it "suck".
Andy is on his way home and I'm sure he can detail the system later if he wishes.
If you look carefully on the far right side you will see, all painted white, a pair of CQ trap boxes, than a bit above them three small line array boxes then above that near the top three more.
This venue has one or more balconies and I'm guessing the "split" line array was meant to cover those balconies with the minimum number of cabinets.
But deployed like that there is not a long enough line to really control the vertical dispersion nor is the number of boxes adequate for bands like Sonic Youth and the Feelies in a venue that size. Coverage to the area directly in front of the stage is non existent and from the reported comments on the on line review also non existent under the balconies at the back of the main floor seating.
As I've said elsewhere, this system MIGHT work for the stand up comedy shows but is certainly not enough "rig for the gig" for shows like Andy's.
Meyer makes good speakers but there just aren't enough of them in the right places to rock this venue.
I think they're either Melodies or M1D. Five boxes per side "aimed" at the top balcony, three more "aimed" at the lower balcony. That's not a working line array, it's just bullshit. The two CQ boxes are "aimed" at the people standing to the side of the house. There's zero center coverage. I have no idea what sort of subs were installed.
There is no low end in the middle; it all just got sucked into the area under the balcony. House drive was through a DN3600, which was pointless because no amount of non-D9 EQ would fix this. No separate zones off of a matrix for the balconies, just left/right out of the desk to the EQ to the processing in the cabinets. The input meters on the EQ were good indicators of how much PA we didn't have; Aaron had the red lights going right at the start. I was into 'em, too, after a couple of songs. It wasn't loud. It was absurd.
I didn't see any fly points in front of the proscenium. I doubt that the roof would support a ton per side hanging, anyway, but that's where a proper rig of, say, 12 boxes of dVDOSC a side would have to go.
Our road manager told me that when he was in the venue with Mogwai, Live Nation contracted to have stuff brought in and it was "acceptable." So for that show there was stuff stacked on the stage. Chris didn't know what it was; perhaps it was the dVDOSC that was brought into the theatre I did in Northampton last year.
Ya know ... UPSTAIRS at the Middle East sounds better than this theatre, and it has the advantage of disappointing only 150 people instead of 1200.
We might do either the Middle East downstairs or the Paradise next year. That'll be better.
-a"This isn't some upside down inverted Socratic method where you throw out your best guess answers and I correct your work." -- JR
"On the Internet, nobody can hear you mix a band."
waldo [Casey Williams] Messages: 327 Registered: August 2004 Location: Location: Location: san f...
Has No Life
I do have to chime in -- this touches on a topic I think about a lot. It's one area where the entertainment system within which we work scores a FAIL.
The venue sucks but their calendar this month reflects: Feelies, Meat Puppets, Sonic Youth, Neko Case, Calexico, Mountain Goats. I would categorize those all as acts which offer a good sound as part of the contract with their fans.
So you have a venue that has sucky sound with acts that require a non-sucky sound. Somebody booked these gigs, and that's where the fault lies. It would be nice if that Bostonist review pointed the finger at the bands' booking agents. And the promoter, if there was one.
I have found this phenomenon frustrating for quite a while. I get told not infrequently that my room sounds better than the competition in my size category. That gets me about a 1% competitive advantage, versus my competitors having been around longer, being better connected, etc, which translates to a 20% competitive advantage for them.
So again, I blame the bands' booking agents for knowingly allowing them to play a shitty venue. I don't blame the fans. There's a cynical argument which hopes that fans would boycott a venue with terrible sound, but on the flipside, it shows there are fans truly dedicated enough to buy a ticket even when they know the production values are likely to be substandard. We need that level of dedication. But we also need promoters and agents willing to stand on principle a little bit, rather than just picking up their 10% and calling it a day.
Curt Sorensen Messages: 73 Registered: October 2005 Location: Madison, WI
Should Get Out More
Hi,
Andy Peters wrote:
It needs to be razed.
Sad and maybe true. I sort of got my start there when it was a legitimate theater. I cleaned it circa 1974. The Colonial too. I can understand how it might not be a good rock'n'roll concert venue. As much as I'm glad to know it still stands, I'm sorry to know it's not being appropriately used. At least Godspell finally left.Curt Sorensen
What Studio
Bob Leonard Messages: 4531 Registered: July 2006 Location: Boston, MA
Has No Life
Curt Sorensen wrote on Tue, 24 November 2009 02:50
Hi,
Andy Peters wrote:
It needs to be razed.
Sad and maybe true. I sort of got my start there when it was a legitimate theater. I cleaned it circa 1974. The Colonial too. I can understand how it might not be a good rock'n'roll concert venue. As much as I'm glad to know it still stands, I'm sorry to know it's not being appropriately used. At least Godspell finally left.
Actually a fairly good point. The building was never built or intended for some of the uses being asked of it today. Speaking with my father about the theatre he had fond memories of burlesque in the early 40's, and even he said there were parts of the theatre where it was hard to hear or see the acts. This was a point we both have in common.
The place is known for it's comedy acts and I've taken in some pretty good shows as far as that's concerned, but I haven't been there since it was supposedly done over in 2008. That being said the sound system appears to be what I remember and Andy seems to validate everything I have heard of or experienced as far as live sound and a band is concerned. I would also have to question the promoter/agent. The Wilbur is probably the last venue anyone in the area would look to for a good rock act. The roar of the grease paint, the smell of the crowd.
John Roberts {JR} Messages: 10485 Registered: April 2004 Location: MS
Has No Life 10,000+
Looking at this like an engineer, with only vague accounts of the venue, it strikes me as a difficult house to deliver good sound "on the cheap". If the LF covers well, what is needed is fill speakers for mid-high band passes, under the balconies, etc.
If there are too many small areas to cover economically with separate amplifiers, perhaps a constant voltage system just for the fill speakers. Without having to handle bass, the constant voltage magnetics could handle it, so only issue is quality of fill speakers and/or step down transformers. Not tasked with LF helps there.
This would take some effort to get everything dialed in so all the zones track well with the main system, but this is not insurmountable technically, unless the venue is also economically marginal.... There is always a chicken-egg thing with what they can charge for the quality of the experience, if the owners can't afford even a modest sound system upgrade, then it needs to not do loud live music shows.
The reviewer needs to be barking up the correct tree, and putting heat on the venue, not our innocent as the driven snow Andy.
Watch your elected representatives. Then next November give them their job review, with your vote.
----
Tune it, or don't play it...
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and it's spelled bus.... Thank You and good night
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Wilbur Theatre, Boston
