| Phil Jones PA, it's the drivers [message #366544] |
Mon, 06 October 2008 11:35  |
 Mark Anderson
Messages: 133
Registered: January 2006
Location: Minnesota |
Has No Life |
|
|
This may not be the exact place for this, so I understand if it gets moved. It's also kind of a long post, sorry. I'm just rather excited and I thought this crowd would be interested. I recently met with Phil Jones, an audiophile and inventor who has been designing speakers and cabinets and is producing some scary-good gear. Along with his bass amps and studio monitors, he's also introducing a p.a. line. I couldn't take pictures but he gave me permission to talk about what I heard.
First some history... Phil Jones is the guy behind ADDSound and Phil Jones Bass. I've been using his Breifcase Bass amp for about a year and a half now. It's 28lb, 100w amp designed as the perfect match for string bass. It's an amazing package and has become THE standard for acoustic bass. It's loud, full range and can handle transients well. http://philjonesbass.com/products-combos-briefcase.htm
I met with Phil on Sunday night to fix a battery lug on the back of my amp. You see, we were in Canada recently and lightning strikes prevented the PA from being used. Like all good bluegrassers, several hundred of us gathered under a few tents and many umbrellas to listen to the bands as the rain came down. Midway through the first band's set, I remembered that my bass amp accepted a 12v connection. So I grabbed an impedance matcher and a 57 and plugged it into my bass amp. Some others grabbed the jumper batteries from their R.V.'s. We used jumper cables to power the amp. The sound was great. Suddenly the vocals and lead instruments could be heard over the din of the drops on the tents and umbrellas. That little Briefcase Bass amp pulling from a 12v battery did a great job. It was in attaching the cables that we broke one of the battery lugs from the back of the amp. I didn't realize the lugs were designed to use banana clips, not jumper cables. oops.
I had neglected to repair the lug as I usually use the amp with 120v ac, but we had several showcases at IBMA were I would need to use the battery. I called Phil and he agreed to take me in on that Sunday evening and repair my amp while I waited. Talk about service. He also took the time to show me the stuff he's been designing lately.
He showed me a studio monitor with a ribbon and a 5" driver that produced a solid 20hz while remaining detailed in the mid range. It was stunning. He tried to explain the stuff he's doing with drivers. That little 5" could handle 3000 watts. Yes, he designs his own amps too. I've been in a lot of studios and heard a lot of things, this was unlike anything I'd ever heard. It was louder than I'd ever like to mix on but it was stunning.
I know you'll be most interested in his P.A. stuff so I'll jump straight to that. He demoed for me (much to the disappointment of his neighbors for several blocks around) two new systems. I didn't write down details as I'm not a reporter but the small system looks like an update to the K-10. http://www.aadsound.com/products/PA%20speaker/k10.htm
It's a wide dispersion design (180x60) that would be great for a small traveling system or an install box in a club. It sounded great, not like the studio monitor in the basement but very good and much better than any 30lb box I've ever heard.
The most amazing thing I saw/heard however was his mini line array. It was a stack of eighteen small Phil Jones designed drivers on a 5 degree arc and sat upon a sub box with three front loaded Phil drivers in a ported box. The design was reminiscent of systems that use hype to try and sell Below Ordinarily Sufficient Equipment except that Phil has designed these drivers and the cases around them. Hearing 36 (left and right) small drivers with 6000w was incredible. It was like the studio monitors in the basement but designed for all the world to hear. He claims he has used this system at shows in China for two thousand people and I can believe it. It was the biggest sound from the smallest pack I'd ever seen.
I believe he's moving everything under the Phil Jones moniker though I don't know how that's going to work. His bass amps are available and I highly recommend them as bass amps, mini pa's and keyboard amps. I pulled the first of his production guitar amps out of a box while I was there. It is a total replacement for the SWR California Blonde at 1/10 the weight. He plans on having his mini line array for NAMM. This being a campaign year, I left his house thinking "it's the drivers, stupid."
My band: http://www.monroecrossing.com
My forum: http://www.BluegrassForum.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Phil Jones PA, it's the drivers [message #366658 is a reply to message #366544 ] |
Mon, 06 October 2008 16:48  |
Mark Anderson
Messages: 133
Registered: January 2006
Location: Minnesota |
Has No Life |
|
|
Sorry, I can only tell you what I heard. I'm a string bass player so I know where 40hz is. This was an octave down.
I forwarded a link to this thread to Phil to make sure he was ok with it and he sent back some pictures of two products, the "PA prototype LS1800 and SM6 studio monitor."
I'll let him know that there are questions and try to encourage him to participate here.
I notice the photo has the AAD moniker.
Here are the photos.
I edited the text when I found out the SM6 was not the monitor I heard. The LS1800 is the line array I mentioned.
[Updated on: Mon, 06 October 2008 16:57]
My band: http://www.monroecrossing.com
My forum: http://www.BluegrassForum.com
|
|
|
| Re: Phil Jones PA, it's the drivers [message #366660 is a reply to message #366544 ] |
Mon, 06 October 2008 16:49 |
Mark Anderson
Messages: 133
Registered: January 2006
Location: Minnesota |
Has No Life |
|
|
Let me take that back. This isn't THE monitor, this is another monitor he had there. Very nice, not as loud or deep as the other. According to the email, this is the SM6. I'll ask if there are any pictures of the other monitor as well.
Attachment: SM6small.jpg
(Size: 22.73KB, Downloaded 821 time(s))
[Updated on: Mon, 06 October 2008 16:53]
My band: http://www.monroecrossing.com
My forum: http://www.BluegrassForum.com
|
|
|
|
| Re: Phil Jones PA, it's the drivers [message #366679 is a reply to message #366544 ] |
Mon, 06 October 2008 18:12 |
Mark Anderson
Messages: 133
Registered: January 2006
Location: Minnesota |
Has No Life |
|
|
From Phil...
"The speakers that could go down to 20 Hz with a single 5 inch, is the 7001 drivers. The power handling is up to 1Kw not 3Kw and the reason why it can do this is simple. First the voice coil is 65mm diameter but then it is coupled thermally to the aluminum cone.
The 7001's were reviewed in mix magazine earlier this year."
http://mixonline.com/gear/reviews/audio_american_acoustic_de velopment/
So I had the watts wrong but the rest of the details right. Here's a picture of the speaker cabinets. These are his studio monitors but I really think his designs are going to change the way we relate to mid size pa.
My band: http://www.monroecrossing.com
My forum: http://www.BluegrassForum.com
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Phil Jones PA, it's the drivers [message #366700 is a reply to message #366617 ] |
Mon, 06 October 2008 19:21 |
Tom Danley
Messages: 349
Registered: March 2005 |
Has No Life |
|
|
Hi Mac
You ask “I too am skeptical, but Ivan, is there some requirement that the cone can only be the part outside the VC? It seems to me the only limiting relationship between VC diameter and cone diameter is that the cone needs to be bigger than the VC.”
Well a dome radiator is usually the outer diameter of the radiator and the radiator is the stiffest shape that can be driven at the outer edge.
With a cone shape of fixed density, the optimum place to drive it is around 2/3 its diameter, so far as having the breakup modes as high as possible.
In the interest of Science, there is another more analytic angle to view the elephant (photo at bottom).
Since we are talking numbers, 20Hz, one can see that in silence, ones threshold of hearing is about 75-80 dB spl at 20Hz. Sounds below that level are undetectable by ear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves
So, if one had a 5 inch speaker that had a 4 inch piston, if it were moving ¾ inch peak to peak and you were one meter away, you would be at the threshold of detection (with no other sounds present). At an inch and a half peak to peak, you could move out to two meters and still possibly hear it.
Best,
Tom Danley
Nice to meet you at AES.
Alternate view of the elephant below
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Phil Jones PA, it's the drivers [message #367008 is a reply to message #366544 ] |
Tue, 07 October 2008 18:15 |
Mark Anderson
Messages: 133
Registered: January 2006
Location: Minnesota |
Has No Life |
|
|
Wow, What interesting responses!
Let me begin by stressing that I have no connection to Phil Jones. I use his Briefcase Bass Amp and was lucky enough to have him give me a tour of his latest designs while he was nice enough to do a Sunday night repair. I thought the members of this site would be interested to hear about someone who is creating some really exciting products. A true artist engineer.
In short, I don't want anything I'm about to write to reflect poorly on Phil...
I understand the skeptical responses, especially as I was wrong about the wattage. I was shown many different designs in a short period of time but as I said in my original post "I didn't write down details as I'm not a reporter." I also corrected myself less than seven hours later when the correct information came through.
But beyond that, I found the other responses very interesting. Ivan and Don, when you hear it, you will know. Your snarky responses are neither constructive nor necessary. When I first heard about the Danley DTS-20, I figured the reported numbers were impossible. I haven't had the opportunity to yet hear a DTS-20 but I have heard the Phil Jones designs.
And Mr. Danley, I respect your experience, standing and designs in the world of pro audio. I understand the point you're attempting to make but you seem to conveniently ignore the conversation of cabinet design, an ironic position for you. And as for the elephant joke, that's just sadly below someone of your stature and smacks uncomfortably of professional jealousy.
Vinny, I agree with your assessment that rock is not the preferred use for a Briefcase. There are several reasons for this. The first would be the lack of distortion, a prerequisite for rock music. It's also a very small 100 watt amp. Small jazz and acoustic music gigs are the target for the briefcase. It handles that very well. Compare it to other boutique amps like the Acoustic Image, it's a major league bargain.
I don't pretend to understand the hows and whys of these designs and acknowledge my failure as a reporter. I know Phil works with an anechoic chamber and has tests proving his frequency response claims. I also know what I experienced. The history of audio has individuals making advances in design. I believe both Mr Danley and Phil Jones are in that small group of individuals. In a year, we'll all be talking about how no product on the market can compete with the LS1800 in it's niche.
[Updated on: Tue, 07 October 2008 19:44]
My band: http://www.monroecrossing.com
My forum: http://www.BluegrassForum.com
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home
Login
Forum Search
Register
FAQ
ya mean the front loaded drivers and a passive radiator.
