| Trying to Make an Old Apogee System sing again [message #316391] |
Fri, 25 April 2008 10:22  |
 Nicholas Radina
Messages: 15
Registered: April 2008 |
Here Often |
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Hello Everyone!
Here is my summer challenge.
I help manage a med. size outdoor amphitheater (1,500 - grass).
The system we've been using consists of 8 Apogee 3x3s2's with 4 AE12 subs. (all with Apogee processors and QSC power)
We do not use all of the 3x3's because some have blown drivers, etc.. On a good day we are running with 6 (3 per side)
The subs are great, but the 3x3's just simply sound bad.
I have to pull a ton out to make them sound "ok".
We also have 6 Apogee AE-5's, which sound much better.
I know I will loose quite a bit on output and coverage, but I'm hoping to gain some quality. I don't need to cover the entire lawn.
So, I'm thinking of testing the system using 1 AE-12 plus 3 AE-5's per side with some sort of lip front fill.
My question is do you think this is worth trying or am I just wishful thinking?
Also, if it is worth a try, can I or should I stack 2 AE-5's horn to horn with the other pointing wide?
Thanks in advance for any help!
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| Re: Trying to Make an Old Apogee System sing again [message #316414 is a reply to message #316391 ] |
Fri, 25 April 2008 11:08  |
Brad Weber
Messages: 1253
Registered: December 2005
Location: Marietta, GA |
Has No Life |
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How are the speakers arranged? What is the physical audience area you are trying to cover? Which processors do you have? Will your rigging support the change? You'd probably have to look at the 'big picture' of how you get the coverage needed and how you make everything work as a system rather than simply comparing boxes.
I'm not sure why you think you would inherently lose coverage, the 3x3s2 is a nominal 60x40 box while the AE-5 is 90x45. Based on the published data, the 3x3s2, as expected, does seem to have much better pattern control, especially at lower frequencies. So yuou may get just as much, if not more, coverage with the AE-5, but probably with more interactions between boxes.
I don't know what kind of acts you have to support, but having areas covered with a single 12" two-way and only a single dual 18" sub per side seems a little lean for a 1,500 seat outdoor venue.
While it is an older product, I have to wonder how much of the the 3x3s2's problems may be from the processing applied and/or how they are arranged and interact.
Brad Weber
muse Audio Video
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| Less is more [message #316431 is a reply to message #316416 ] |
Fri, 25 April 2008 11:59 |
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Mac Kerr
Messages: 6008
Registered: April 2004
Location: Westchester County, NY |
Has No Life |
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| Nicholas Radina wrote on Fri, 25 April 2008 12:17 |
I array each 3x3 essentially side by side using the cabinets splay.
The stage is concrete and about 8 feet above the audience.
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Each 3x3 has 60deg of coverage. Using 2 per side gives you 120deg of coverage, how much do you need? You need to separate the fronts of the speakers so that the angle between their centerlines is 60deg. This will minimize overlap and interaction between the speakers.
| Nicholas Radina wrote on Fri, 25 April 2008 12:17 |
I'm using the P-500RV processor.
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It has been a long time since I have used any of those products, but isn't the P-500RV a biamp processor for the AE5? Do you have the correct processor for your triamp only 3x3s?
| Nicholas Radina wrote on Fri, 25 April 2008 12:17 |
Do you think I should array the 3x3's differently?
Also, elemental question but what is the purpose of stacking two boxes with the top box upside down (horn to horn)?
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As I said above, yes, you should array your 3x3s differently. The purpose of the inverted stacking is to get the horns of the 2 speakers as close together as possible so the frequency at which the comb filtering becomes objectionable is as high as possible. It allows them to sum the best they can giving you increased power over the same coverage area.
Mac
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| Re: Trying to Make an Old Apogee System sing again [message #316437 is a reply to message #316416 ] |
Fri, 25 April 2008 12:05 |
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Michael 'Bink' Knowles
Messages: 3918
Registered: April 2004
Location: Oakland, CA |
Has No Life |
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| Nicholas Radina wrote on Fri, 25 April 2008 09:17 |
...Each cabinet is on wheels that we wheel out to the far lip of the stage...
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Gee whiz, that's awfully convenient but what about little niceties like aiming the speaker pattern so it covers the audience?
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...I array each 3x3 essentially side by side using the cabinets splay.
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Wow. The speaker's trapezoidal shape only gives you about 14 degrees splay when they are packed flat side to side. You need something more like 50 degrees splay to get ~110 degrees coverage per two or ~160 degrees coverage per three. Touch the back edges together then widen out between the front grilles.
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...The stage is concrete and about 8 feet above the audience.
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Does the audience area stay flat relative to the stage or does it rise up in elevation the farther you get from the stage? If the latter situation is true, you have some hope. If the audience area is flat then you need to tilt your speakers down to point them somewhere around the center of the audience. At any rate, they should be pointing at audience members in the middle distance.
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...I'm using the P-500RV processor.
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Holy cow! You can't be serious... that processor is for your AE-5s, not for 3x3s. You need the Apogee D-1 or the DLC24 digital controllers or the P-3x3 (available in three flavors: -PVS, -PVD, -RVD) analog controllers.
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...Do you think I should array the 3x3's differently?
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See above diagram.
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...Also, elemental question but what is the purpose of stacking two boxes with the top box upside down (horn to horn)?
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This adds some distance and directivity to your speaker pattern and somewhat hides the resulting comb filter lobes in the vertical plane where few of your audience members will hear it.
Regarding your question of using AE-5s; I say yes, use them, since that's the processor you have. You might lose some power at the back of the audience, though. Your highs won't be as crispy back there.
I've never thought the 3x3 was a good-sounding box. It always required a lot of EQ from me to make it passable. Regardless, it has more 'reach' than your AE-5s. If the audience is farther than 75 feet to the back row then you should repair your 3x3s and get the right controllers. Or look into getting another entire speaker system.
No matter what speaker system you use you should be aiming the speakers at the audience rather than bowing to convenience.
I imagine you've seen the Apogee 3x3 PDF. It's 1.4 MB:
http://www.apogeesound.com/pdfs/AE-3X3s2.pdf
-Bink
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| Re: Trying to Make an Old Apogee System sing again [message #316517 is a reply to message #316437 ] |
Fri, 25 April 2008 15:26 |
Brad Weber
Messages: 1253
Registered: December 2005
Location: Marietta, GA |
Has No Life |
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Agreed, the 3x3 is not the best sounding box but tight packing them and using the incorrect processor sure wouldn't help, althoug it might be relevant to the blown drivers, etc.
Brad Weber
muse Audio Video
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| Re: Trying to Make an Old Apogee System sing again [message #316602 is a reply to message #316544 ] |
Fri, 25 April 2008 21:57 |
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I think that the 2" driver is an EV part, PM me and I'll put you in touch with someone who can tell you where to obtain diaphragms, and as others pointed out the P500 is the wrong processor.
I can say with some certainty that this was an activity quite unknown in Iowa!
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| Re: Trying to Make an Old Apogee System sing again [message #316620 is a reply to message #316391 ] |
Fri, 25 April 2008 23:53 |
HarryBrillJr.
Messages: 698
Registered: April 2007 |
Has No Life |
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The speakers that sound bad,....are ALL the drivers working? If you have ANY bad drivers in a small system like that, it may be hard to tell, but the system will sound like garbage. Seems like you could have some bad ones since you have other blown speakers. Sometimes even if they make noise they need replacing due to fatigue and age.
Obviously if you are using the wrong processor that will make a huge difference, and arraying the cabinets might be a good idea too.
[Updated on: Fri, 25 April 2008 23:59]
Harry Brill Jr.
http://www.geocities.com/proaudioguy/
http://www.rationalacoustics.com/
http://www.rationalacoustics.com/forums/
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| Re: Trying to Make an Old Apogee System sing again [message #317282 is a reply to message #316391 ] |
Mon, 28 April 2008 10:06 |
Nicholas Radina
Messages: 15
Registered: April 2008 |
Here Often |
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Hello Everyone!
Thank you VERY much for the help!
You are all right, I noted the wrong processor for the 3x3's (It was a long week last week...)
Yes, I have the 3x3-RV processor.
So, based on your advice, I'm going to first test for the band drivers, etc. Next I will array the 3x3's properly.
Regrading the subs, they are also on "wheels".
Last year we put two in a center cluster, yet from what I've read that may not be the best choice for my situation.
We have 4 total AE-10's.
I would like to stack the 3x3's on the AE-10's, but I'm wary of the weight on the AE-10 and the castors.
Regardless, could I place one ae-10 beside 2-3 3x3's (maybe on the outside?)
Thanks for your help!!
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| Re: Trying to Make an Old Apogee System sing again [message #317304 is a reply to message #317282 ] |
Mon, 28 April 2008 11:14 |
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I doubt very much whether 4 AE10 could even keep up with 2 3x3 let alone 4, I always used the AE12 for that gig and at a one to one ratio .. the 3x3 is loud! Also the cabinets are very different shapes and although it's not likely that the 3x3 would fall off it really does look as if it does not belong there. Weight at 276 for the 3x3 and 125 for the AE10 is between you and your casters.
Are you driving the 15"s off of one or two amp channels?, same question for the 15's in the AE10, my experience has been that best results are obtained by following Apogee's recommendations, (4ch of amplification for a 3x3 & 2 for an AE10)
Let us know how this turns out.
I can say with some certainty that this was an activity quite unknown in Iowa!
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| Re: Trying to Make an Old Apogee System sing again [message #317313 is a reply to message #317306 ] |
Mon, 28 April 2008 11:49 |
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Try 2 AE12 vertically on end next to 2 3x3 stacked (top cab inverted), I had good results with that configuration.
I can say with some certainty that this was an activity quite unknown in Iowa!
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| Re: Trying to Make an Old Apogee System sing again [message #317326 is a reply to message #317322 ] |
Mon, 28 April 2008 12:04 |
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I think that Apogee used to recommend a 2 to 1 ratio (3x3 to AE12) but I found that if you were hitting the 3x3 hard then more sub was needed, all depends on program I guess
Ian
I can say with some certainty that this was an activity quite unknown in Iowa!
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