Forum Home » Sound Reinforcement » LAB Subwoofer » your thoughts on tuba 36's / bill fitz designs
| your thoughts on tuba 36's / bill fitz designs [message #257014] |
Wed, 24 October 2007 04:32  |
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found a builder in northern louisiana
what are your opinions on the tuba 36 subs?
Josh Cohen
Sense Sound / Shift Industries
New Orleans, La
504.231.2030
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| Re: your thoughts on tuba 36's / bill fitz designs [message #257121 is a reply to message #257103 ] |
Wed, 24 October 2007 13:51  |
 Jeff Babcock
Messages: 944
Registered: September 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada |
Has No Life |
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Hi Les,
I'm not saying they will sound bad on kick, just that typical Tuba freq response (at least that I have seen measured NOT on the BFM site) has a dip right at the fundamental freq of many kicks. This is one of the reasons why Mr. Fitzmaurice recommends Titans over Tubas for live music.
I have found the charts on the BFM site to be less peaky than actual measured subs at events. Look at the T48 for example which Leland brought to the recent sub shootout in Tulsa. I think Leland was somewhat surprised. The results were similar to the site but certainly more peaky. He brought a pair so I wouldn't suspect a faulty build.
In multiples peakiness will smooth out anyway, and I don't doubt at all that you can get a very good sounding kick with T36's. The top box will be a big factor too. I have some T48's, and while they are good, I have certainly heard better, abeit considerably more expensive subs. Of course I have no T36 to compare to. One big factor is that there are many options when building the T36, so that is an issue in knowing if we can really compare apples to apples.
What variation of the T36 is Josh looking at? The dual 15" version would be a bass monster, although physically huge.
I presume the T36's value is much like the T48 - a highly efficient sub that gives the end user with a modest budget the ability to get performance comparable to many of the big boys, in some cases better, albeit not the absolute top of the heap. There are minor comprimises in Bill's designs based on using stock Eminence drivers, which of course keeps costs down and makes things generally more DIY friendly. Labs had a custom driver designed, 12Pi uses that driver but adds cooling and other variations on it, Bassmax sure isn't using low power eminence drivers. Not dissing eminence, I have no issue with them, but I'm sure specs could be better with a higher output custom driver specific to the design.
I know the T48 does not perform quite as well as a Danley TH115 in terms of low extension, smoothness, and overall impact, but the difference in sound quality is nowhere near as great as the difference in price. T36 should be a similar story. I really doubt it could hang in there with something like a Bassmaxx Deuce, Lab, 12Pi etc in overall output and in lowest distortion figures but who cares when you can have a fleet of them at a fraction of the price? Most people will benefit more in the extra $$ to invest elsewhere in their rig.
BTW, nicest kick drum I ever heard was on an Adamson line array. Adamson rigs are bloody expensive but I have yet to hear someone complain about their recent stuff.
My 2c. Josh what is your intended use?
Jeff
[Updated on: Wed, 24 October 2007 14:24]
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| Re: your thoughts on tuba 36's / bill fitz designs [message #257273 is a reply to message #257121 ] |
Wed, 24 October 2007 21:54 |
peter.golde
Messages: 209
Registered: November 2004
Location: AZ |
Has No Life |
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| Jeff Babcock wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 14:51 |
... T36 should be a similar story. I really doubt it could hang in there with something like a Bassmaxx Deuce, Lab, 12Pi etc in overall output and in lowest distortion figures but who cares when you can have a fleet of them at a fraction of the price? Most people will benefit more in the extra $$ to invest elsewhere in their rig.
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lb for lb, volume for volume, drivers for drivers, the T36 can HANG in there with any of the above mentioned subs. The differences between them are small, they all have great performance. The difference in cost is debatable. Pay more money up front for a name, better return on investment if planning to sell, DIY start making money right away with little investment, use for firewood when done.
BTW, kick doesn't come from subs, with these monsters of clean low output (all subs mentioned), you better have some kicking midbass, single front load 15's don't cut it.
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer" - Frank Zappa
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| Re: your thoughts on tuba 36's / bill fitz designs [message #257302 is a reply to message #257291 ] |
Thu, 25 October 2007 00:55 |
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im with les on this one.
keep in mind that my market is mainly EDM (electronic music) shows, specificly house music and drum n bass.. a few other co-horts of mine from a :flame:dj:flame: forum that play/produce events of the same style have nothing but good things to say about the 36's in pairs, quartets, or ... sextuplets?
right now price is the key. i can have 2 tuba 36's signed sealed and (picked up) for the cost of 1 jtr growler. (and i can have all the business handled within the great state of louisiana)
if i was doing more LIVE sound reinforcement the growlers would remain my first choice, especially with their compact size and huge sound, but right now my market is growing faster than i can upgrade to growlers.
Josh Cohen
Sense Sound / Shift Industries
New Orleans, La
504.231.2030
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| Re: your thoughts on tuba 36's / bill fitz designs [message #257360 is a reply to message #257302 ] |
Thu, 25 October 2007 09:57 |
Jeff Babcock
Messages: 944
Registered: September 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada |
Has No Life |
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For that style of music T36 should work great. BTW, There is a considerable difference between MSRP and actual cost on Growlers, that's very impressive if you can get 2 T36 for the cost of 1 Growler. Les must really like Josh. That's an almost stupidly good deal.
Anyway, I'm not looking for some sort of debate, I built some Titans myself and they work fine with my B rig. They have lots of output. If Josh has already heard T36 and is happy with their sound, that's perfect, and did I already say A GREAT PRICE!
I guess a lot of my comments re T36 are moot since I have not heard that particular Tuba model.
Re the Titans, I think Wayne is being pretty modest in his comments here. I don't think 2 Titans = 1 12Pi.... close maybe in some respects, but very different in low end extension and especially in distortion. Also from my experience of Labs there is a noticeable difference in perceived "sound" vs Titans, regardless of measurements. I do prefer the "sound" of a lab (and I presume 12Pi should only be an improvement on this). I am by no means a fanboy of Wayne, Tom Danley, Bill Fitz, or others. Each has found a good niche, and their designs in some respect are driven by their end user group.
Take the weight and size of subs into consideration.... Bill Fitz's subs are typically significantly lighter than others... many BFM builders don't have a crew to haul heavy gear in. But that comes with a penalty. I really doubt that Wayne and Tom D are completely oblivious to the fact that their subs are typically much heavier and in some cases larger than Bill's.
I know I would not put my Titans on a truck and send them out on a national tour, they would likely get very beaten up and I wouldn't trust the 3015LF to survive so much abuse (I like the 3015LF, but even though I have never had one fail, I still have a hard time trusting it and am very careful with them). That's fine though, it's usually ME running them, and so they don't get abused.
Anyway, again I have no issue here, these are all VERY good subs we are talking about. I have no intention to discredit any of them, they all fit a niche and are in many cases considerably better than many commercial offerings. I did not mean to open up a can of worms.
Josh, the T36 should work very well for you.
[Updated on: Thu, 25 October 2007 10:07]
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| Re: your thoughts on tuba 36's / bill fitz designs [message #257366 is a reply to message #257273 ] |
Thu, 25 October 2007 10:21 |
Jeff Babcock
Messages: 944
Registered: September 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada |
Has No Life |
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| peter.golde wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 22:54 |
lb for lb, volume for volume, drivers for drivers, the T36 can HANG in there with any of the above mentioned subs. The differences between them are small, they all have great performance. The difference in cost is debatable. Pay more money up front for a name, better return on investment if planning to sell, DIY start making money right away with little investment, use for firewood when done.
BTW, kick doesn't come from subs, with these monsters of clean low output (all subs mentioned), you better have some kicking midbass, single front load 15's don't cut it.
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Peter, I don't doubt they can come close, but look at Bassmaxx Deuce as an example. Does well on the SPL chart (see the recent sub shootout results vs T48) in terms of efficiency, Handles 2000 watts, 4000 Peak, 144db max output roughly. Yes it takes a lot of extra power to get more output, but hey, 3015LF drivers are only 450W, 900 Peak. Put 2 3015's in a cabinet and you still have less than half the power handling of a Deuce with no better overall efficiency. The difference will not be huge, but certainly an extra 1100 watts will give more output.
[Updated on: Thu, 25 October 2007 10:28]
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| Re: your thoughts on tuba 36's / bill fitz designs [message #257378 is a reply to message #257366 ] |
Thu, 25 October 2007 11:03 |
peter.golde
Messages: 209
Registered: November 2004
Location: AZ |
Has No Life |
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| Jeff Babcock wrote on Thu, 25 October 2007 11:21 |
| peter.golde wrote on Wed, 24 October 2007 22:54 |
lb for lb, volume for volume, drivers for drivers, the T36 can HANG in there with any of the above mentioned subs. The differences between them are small, they all have great performance. The difference in cost is debatable. Pay more money up front for a name, better return on investment if planning to sell, DIY start making money right away with little investment, use for firewood when done.
BTW, kick doesn't come from subs, with these monsters of clean low output (all subs mentioned), you better have some kicking midbass, single front load 15's don't cut it.
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Peter, I don't doubt they can come close, but look at Bassmaxx Deuce as an example. Does well on the SPL chart (see the recent sub shootout results vs T48) in terms of efficiency, Handles 2000 watts, 4000 Peak, 144db max output roughly. Yes it takes a lot of extra power to get more output, but hey, 3015LF drivers are only 450W, 900 Peak. Put 2 3015's in a cabinet and you still have less than half the power handling of a Deuce with no better overall efficiency. The difference will not be huge, but certainly an extra 1100 watts will give more output.
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First, I would use 4015's over 3015's for the ability to take more abuse, power, and if you look at the spl charts of Wayne's shootout, there is virtually no difference in output between 800 watts and 1600 watts, waste of power in my opinion.
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer" - Frank Zappa
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| Re: your thoughts on tuba 36's / bill fitz designs [message #257392 is a reply to message #257378 ] |
Thu, 25 October 2007 11:36 |
Jeff Babcock
Messages: 944
Registered: September 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada |
Has No Life |
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It does yield a couple extra db. Whether that matters or not is subjective. However looking at the 800W measurements, the Titan is beaten considerably at 40Hz by a lot more than could be made up by adding a 2nd cab, and again from roughly 70-90Hz.
Keep in mind again I own some Titans, I'm not trying to discredit them..... it just seems it competes more closely with the Growler than the Trip or 12Pi.
[Updated on: Thu, 25 October 2007 11:44]
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And as far as the builder goes.....Les is a great guy too! 
