Bennett Prescott wrote on Wed, 13 September 2006 15:33
Luis,
Mains speakers are largely mid- and far-throw boxes and, as such, compromises in driver spacing and selection that would be unnacceptable in a near-field speaker are often overlooked in favor of SPL.
The long-lived 15"x2" combo that works poorly but acceptably in a mains application has, IMNSHO, no business being on stage where even frequency response is desired. The Adamson wedge sounds and reacts to feedback exactly like a box with a 15" LF driver and large-diaphragm HF driver crossed over fairly high.
Hi Bennett,
Ok, this sounds like you have an inherent objection that you feel there is no solution for. Please elaborate.
What are the special characteristics that causes feedback in a 15”/2”?
Would a 15”/1” be better?
Why can’t the uneven frequency response be treated? What makes it a special problem for a large format monitor?
To me the only insurmountable problem is its size. Who wants a chest freezer on stage with them? If the performer is short the problem is magnified.
Bennett Prescott wrote on Wed, 13 September 2006 15:33
It is fairly light and low profile, but I think they're trying to get too much out of one box by making it flyable, arrayable, and a monitor.
I like my wedges a little bright with a very tight mid-bass and gradual rolloff of the lows. They should sound slightly thin in a listening situation but cut well when there's lots of noise. Linearity off-axis is also important to me, but that's the case in any speaker. I usually then HPF them up to 200hz, +/- 50Hz.
Too Tall
Curtis H. List
Bridgeport, Mich.
I.A.T.S.E. Local # 274 (Gold Card)
Lansing, Mich
Independent Live Sound Engineer (and I'm Tall Too!)
Langston Holland Messages: 864 Registered: August 2004 Location: Pensacola FL
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Bink wrote on Wed, 13 September 2006:
Another thing about wedge design is that you can count on half-space loading to reinforce the LF. If your do-everything box is supposed to sound okay up on a stick then you get tubby bass when it's placed on stage for mons. Porting and box design can only be optimized for one of the two jobs.
Then again, if the box is not ported, self-powered and processed, and happens to have a switch on the back to optimize its behavior for either position, such as EAW's NT29:
I just did a bunch of measurements on this box to align them with the Danley subs for a 3 day black gospel event that started last night (I absolutely love this music!). I thought it would be interesting to Bennett as well to see Gunness's approach to dealing with floor coupling issues when using the NT29 as a wedge. Green trace is "normal" and cyan trace is switched to "coupled". Phase plot looks FIRry to me - very much as if the box only had a single driver.
Mike Butler (media) Messages: 3009 Registered: October 2005 Location: southern connecticut
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Too Tall (Curtis H. List) wrote on Fri, 15 September 2006 11:23
...Who wants a chest freezer on stage with them? If the performer is short the problem is magnified....
HEY! That's vertically challenged to you, Mr. Tall Guy!
I wonder if Jack's proposed AA15 would have displayed the same characteristics Bennett was alluding to.
BTW, Curtis, check your e-mail. http://www.mikebutlermedia.com
Mike Butler Media * AV/video production * corporate event production * presentation services * marketing support * creative research * graphic design * photography
Mike Butler (media) wrote on Fri, 15 September 2006 14:05
Too Tall (Curtis H. List) wrote on Fri, 15 September 2006 11:23
...Who wants a chest freezer on stage with them? If the performer is short the problem is magnified....
HEY! That's vertically challenged to you, Mr. Tall Guy!
I wonder if Jack's proposed AA15 would have displayed the same characteristics Bennett was alluding to.
BTW, Curtis, check your e-mail.
First I want to know exactly what he is alluding to.
Beyond that the AA15 is a BMS 15”/1” coax with a tulip horn. That makes it a strange animal in anyone’s book. As you saw from the picture the dispersion from the horn is very tight. The last thing that cut off that hard I have had in my shop was a couple td-1s.
It is also very light at 10 pounds. The 12: coax is 11.2 pounds. http://www.assistanceaudio.com/02_coaxials.html
I checked my email and you sent me the same email twice. I replied to the first one and figured the second one was a mistake.
trace knight Messages: 804 Registered: April 2004 Location: Akron, oh.
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""Why can’t the uneven frequency response be treated? What makes it a special problem for a large format monitor?""
I think what is being refered to is the same thoughs I had on lots of these boxes. They all, for the most part sounded pretty darn good, without the aid of any eq, and treatments. The only box that stuck in my mind as needing a lot of said 'treatment" was the adamson. I know all too well that no-one gets on stage and leaves their boxes flat, there is always some tweaking to do. It's just that this particular box seemed to need lots of tweaking right off the bat, All of the wedges we tested were stock, and a few had their own propietary black boxes, (d&b) the small monitors responded quite well alone and passive I might add. I havn't used a passive wedge for anything serious in years, and I was impressed at how far they have come along, power handling and crossover networks. It was amazing to see some of these crossovers when we operated on them, and left no parts or tools behind!
On a side note, We compared the Radian Micro Wedge against my EAW 260iv wedges, and seem to favor them more than the eaw, a box about the same size and components, although the micro is a coax 12x2 and the eaw is a 12" and 2"horn. The micro has more low end, stock out of the box, without process than the eaw with! I like the porting to the floor, and the hidden connectors and switch as opposed to repairing both on the eaw's when they get stepped on and dragged about. I'm taking the pair out this week for 3 weeks of shows on the road, and will tell more on my return.
Mike Butler (media) Messages: 3009 Registered: October 2005 Location: southern connecticut
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Too Tall (Curtis H. List) wrote on Fri, 15 September 2006 18:04
...First I want to know exactly what he is alluding to....
Curtis, this is what Bennett said:
Quote:
The long-lived 15"x2" combo that works poorly but acceptably in a mains application has, IMNSHO, no business being on stage where even frequency response is desired. The Adamson wedge sounds and reacts to feedback exactly like a box with a 15" LF driver and large-diaphragm HF driver crossed over fairly high.
It is fairly light and low profile, but I think they're trying to get too much out of one box by making it flyable, arrayable, and a monitor.
Too Tall (Curtis H. List) wrote on Fri, 15 September 2006 18:04
...I checked my email and you sent me the same email twice. I replied to the first one and figured the second one was a mistake.
Yep, I pushed the transmit button twice...call it a senior moment. After all, I was born in 1776.
http://www.mikebutlermedia.com
Mike Butler Media * AV/video production * corporate event production * presentation services * marketing support * creative research * graphic design * photography
trace knight wrote on Fri, 15 September 2006 18:23
""Why can’t the uneven frequency response be treated? What makes it a special problem for a large format monitor?""
I think what is being refered to is the same thoughs I had on lots of these boxes. They all, for the most part sounded pretty darn good, without the aid of any eq, and treatments. The only box that stuck in my mind as needing a lot of said 'treatment" was the adamson. I know all too well that no-one gets on stage and leaves their boxes flat, there is always some tweaking to do. It's just that this particular box seemed to need lots of tweaking right off the bat,
I was looking for a specific cause from Bennett, like the 15” beams too narrow etc.
Well I have a couple of theories…
trace knight wrote on Fri, 15 September 2006 18:23
All of the wedges we tested were stock, and a few had their own propietary black boxes, (d&b) the small monitors responded quite well alone and passive I might add. I havn't used a passive wedge for anything serious in years, and I was impressed at how far they have come along, power handling and crossover networks. It was amazing to see some of these crossovers when we operated on them, and left no parts or tools behind!
Hey, cheap shot!
At least it worked.
First if you went active back when all we had were active analog 4th order LR xovers you had to chop the crap out of a 1/3rd octave EQ to end up with something you were not happy with. A 12” woofer mates better out of the box for frequency response and depending how high the xover point was made a huge difference.
I designed the xovers in Al’s 15”/1” monitors and he barely has to touch the EQ to do anything from loud rock to all acoustic bluegrass.
I don’t know why the adamson needed so much EQ. My guess is it was a decision to let you fix it for some reason. With tools like LspCAD there is no technical reason for it.
It could be as simple as they did not want to spend enough money to make the passive xover it needed.
As for how far passive wedges have come it took a few companies to make a decent xover to turn the tide. All the MI stuff with xovers that were only there to protect the high frequency driver has poisoned the well. If you went back 20 years you had people buying “stock” 12dB xovers from JBL, EV or whoever to put in their 15”/1” monitors. No WONDER they only used biamp! LOL
trace knight wrote on Fri, 15 September 2006 18:23
On a side note, We compared the Radian Micro Wedge against my EAW 260iv wedges, and seem to favor them more than the eaw, a box about the same size and components, although the micro is a coax 12x2 and the eaw is a 12" and 2"horn. The micro has more low end, stock out of the box, without process than the eaw with! I like the porting to the floor, and the hidden connectors and switch as opposed to repairing both on the eaw's when they get stepped on and dragged about. I'm taking the pair out this week for 3 weeks of shows on the road, and will tell more on my return.
tk
Too Tall
Curtis H. List
Bridgeport, Mich.
I.A.T.S.E. Local # 274 (Gold Card)
Lansing, Mich
Independent Live Sound Engineer (and I'm Tall Too!)
Chris Cowley Messages: 644 Registered: April 2004 Location: Portsmouth UK
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Dave wrote on Tue, 12 September 2006 21:03
A Q sub and a Max is a killer little drum fill.
Dave
Agreed - I still think C4 is one of the best sounding rigs available - sadly it is now being forgotten in favour of line arrays. My local D&B house has recently got rid of all its C4 to fund an up?grade to Q-series. The worst bit is that some of it has gone into the club where I started, which has probably got he worst acoustics on the planet (think concrete shoebox with a smaller concrete shoebox sat on top), so it sounds horrible.
What do you mean you've stoppped touring?GO YOU BIG RED FIRE ENGINE!!!!!!!!!
Langston Holland Messages: 864 Registered: August 2004 Location: Pensacola FL
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Bink wrote on Fri, 15 September 2006:
Green trace is normal... I imagine you tested this speaker in something a little like being on a tripod?
Blue trace is coupled. Did you test it in half space when in coupled mode?
Blue trace?! Well, at least you have good ears! :)
You're right, I tested the NT29 on a tripod at a reasonable working height (bottom of cab 6' above surface) with the mic about 20' away on the ground plane (a cement slab in an open field). I aimed the $3k+ loudspeaker's front at the mic position by leaning the tripod forward and keeping it from crashing down with about 3 bucks worth of rope! My 15 year-old son said I was crazy - which is true - so I took a pictures to prove it. :)) I'm way too busy right now to start a NT29 thread - I've also done a fair amount of work aligning the Danley subs to various tops (easiest phase curve I've ever dealt with). A hamster could align these subs to the NT29 tops. I also believe I've found a biamplified processing arrangement for the 12" Microwedges that beats the stuffin' out of the factory rec's using standard IIR filters (louder, cleaner, better driver protection and far less phase rotation). I'll post on all this when I can get some time.
Half space (monitor position) testing on the NT29 showed a 3dB increase in the LF, almost exactly as predicted by the "coupled" switch position. I chose to place the mic at the ear position of someone standing at the proper position behind the box, thus you see a floor bounce cancellation around 280Hz and more interestingly, the 16kHz peak is gone. It appears that the angle chosen for the wedge position allows some floor bounce from the horn as well, if this is true and was planned, I’m really impressed.
I show the phase trace unwrapped for fun. It's facinating to me to see Gunness using computers to do this while Danley is using physical positioning. Both approaches are yielding marvelous sounding loudspeakers and I think we're finally seeing time getting the attention it's due.
The "coupled" switch position trace really is blue. :))
Ivan Beaver Messages: 8313 Registered: January 2005 Location: Atlanta Ga area
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[quote title=Langston Holland wrote on Sat, 16 September 2006 11:52I show the phase trace unwrapped for fun. It's facinating to me to see Gunness using computers to do this while Danley is using physical positioning. Both approaches are yielding marvelous sounding loudspeakers and I think we're finally seeing time getting the attention it's due.
[/quote]
Your statement about time is so right. I have been saying for years that time (arrival) is more important than amplitude response. People get so hung up on amplitude response-because they seem to be able to understand better and it is easier to manipulate than time arrivals, most of which they can do nothing about-except maybe at a single listening position, but then all the other positions will be off.
With Tom's previous company, SPL, his products were far from flat (amplitude wise) but he had gotten the time very close, so as a result they sounded great providing great detail to the music. When he was working on the TD2 (which we got to test a prototype) the time was even better, which would allow things like the fingers plucking a harp to be heard while in the TD1 all you heard was the harp. The result was a much more realistic experience for the listener. Percussive instruments would stand out much easier and cleaner.
To Tom, phase response is one of the most important measurements of a loudspeaker.
He has found even better ways to get the time even closer now-again with an improvement in the quality in his newest products. For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer.
Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?
Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
Danley Sound Labs
"Krazy" Karl Bader Messages: 277 Registered: April 2004 Location: Gwynn Oak, Maryland
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Do you have a spec page somewhere where you posted all the data for each monitor? right now this seems like a discussion amongst those who were there and seems pretty useless to me. I think it would be really cool to have a page stating the following: Wedge make/model, photo, what's in it, manufacturers specs, ballpark price, YOUR SMAART traces (because it's a controlled environment between wedges, all tested the same), each of your opinions on each wedge. Also a basic on how you all went through and tested these wedges, how you decided which wedges would be there etc. I admit I am getting lost as there seems to be about 400 different posts on this wedge fest and all I want are the results, to compare overall characteristics, and how the tests were compiled.
Winston Gamble Messages: 791 Registered: April 2004 Location: Utah
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Karl Bader wrote on Sat, 16 September 2006 17:07
Do you have a spec page somewhere where you posted all the data for each monitor? right now this seems like a discussion amongst those who were there and seems pretty useless to me. I think it would be really cool to have a page stating the following: Wedge make/model, photo, what's in it, manufacturers specs, ballpark price, YOUR SMAART traces (because it's a controlled environment between wedges, all tested the same), each of your opinions on each wedge. Also a basic on how you all went through and tested these wedges, how you decided which wedges would be there etc. I admit I am getting lost as there seems to be about 400 different posts on this wedge fest and all I want are the results, to compare overall characteristics, and how the tests were compiled.
Or am I just missing the link to all of this?
Thanks,
Karl
As I understand it, the notes posted by Bennett here, http://www.campuspa.com/images/wedgefest/notes.doc are what's available and are a compilation of many opinions shared over the dinner table. Most all the wedges went home with individuals to play with so more comments should be forthcoming in the road test forum.
It seems odd to me that with a talented herd of nerds of that magnitude nobody cobbled together a quick Excel spreadsheet with all the info you suggest. But then again, I wasn't there and I imagine that even with two days time was short.
Ville Kauhanen Messages: 32 Registered: April 2004 Location: Helsinki, FINLAND
Should Get Out More
[/quote]
.. I like the M4 (though it's pretty big) and the Max and would like to hear an M2. A Q sub and a Max is a killer little drum fill.
Dave
[/quote]
I'm not to split hairs here but I think you mean M2 (38kgs) is pretty big and you'd like to hear M4 (20kgs !!). MAX15 weights 26kgs and can be driven with virtually any amp and M-series are to be driven only with D12 amp. Previously M2 was available only with A1 amp with the two way active processor card. So one amp, one mon mix.
I've been using M4s a lot since May of this year. It is extremely capable wedge especially when size and weight are considered. I've used M2s extensively since they were introduced and while M2 still is my favourite wedge I admit that M4 is basically the second choice.
M4 is an excellent choice for rental company of any size since it can be run as passive or two way active. So one D12 amp can drive on mix active two way OR two passive mixes.
There is just something special I like in the transient response and the overall performance of the M-series d&b wedges.
...It seems odd to me that with a talented herd of nerds of that magnitude nobody cobbled together a quick Excel spreadsheet with all the info you suggest...
I thought the event was more oriented to personal experience and gut feeling than hard science and spreadsheet comparisons. Something about all that beer...
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