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Forum Home » Sound Reinforcement » LAB Lounge » single or dual 15 tops?
| single or dual 15 tops? [message #321955] |
Mon, 12 May 2008 09:12  |
 Jess Bruffett
Messages: 299
Registered: July 2006
Location: Claremore, Oklahoma |
Has No Life |
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ok, currently im running 1 s215v's over 1 sw218v's per side. the tops off a rmx 2450 in stereo and the subs with a bridged 1450 to each sub cab. i am thuroughly unsatisfied with the dual 15's first in terms of size and weight. their output is descent. i am considering moving the dual 15's to the side (eventually as a drumfill and sidefills later on) and going with a pair of s115v's and in the future a second pair. the sensitivity of the s115v's and the s215v's are the same, of course the frequency response is different as is size and weight. and using the 2450 in stereo for the single 15 tops, i stand to lose about 1db of output. is there anything else to consider in going to the smaller tops? is it a bad call? is it a good call? in your opinions. how much differance is that 1 db really gonna make?
Awaken the Dead Productions
http://www.myspace.com/awakenthedeadproductions
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| Re: single or dual 15 tops? [message #321957 is a reply to message #321955 ] |
Mon, 12 May 2008 09:29  |
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Why not upgrade to a QRx/SRX/Elite/Unity stuff instead of the Clubs for mains... if you're not happy with them now, you won't be happy with the single 15" version.
I have my own domain name now: www.mattvivslivesound.com
I'm located in Southern MD.
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| Re: single or dual 15 tops? [message #321980 is a reply to message #321955 ] |
Mon, 12 May 2008 10:49 |
Mike {AB} Butler
Messages: 1798
Registered: April 2004
Location: Lynchburg, VA |
Has No Life |
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Jess,
I know we've all called you out on this before, but, have to ask:
- Budget - are you too tight to consider a better quality unit?
- Desired SPL - even though you seem to be willing to "live with a dB less" in club V's, wouldn't you really rather have more?
- Portability sounds like the primary issue.. or is it that you want to be able to stick the resulting cab on a pole.. or a pack issue?
- Is the 2450 cast in concrete, or would you be willing to swap out or add to.. in the event the new choice requires more juice?
You seem to have had a love/hate relationship with those boxes, based on your past postings. Maybe time to reexamine your goals, business plan, etc. Are your events getting tougher to fill? More system requirements?
Based on what your saying in your past and present postings, I get the sense you want to really move up the ladder, getting something that is a better performer, AND is more portable/packable?
Regards,
Mike Butler
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| Re: single or dual 15 tops? [message #322199 is a reply to message #321980 ] |
Mon, 12 May 2008 22:18 |
Jess Bruffett
Messages: 299
Registered: July 2006
Location: Claremore, Oklahoma |
Has No Life |
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well to try and hit all the points. i dont have the budget to upgrade. tulsa is the worse market to try and do sound in. there are guys in tulsa who have rich parents and deep pockets that have 8 box jbl srx systems with qsc plx/macrotech amps and a&h gl3800 consoles and do gigs for 100-150 bucks(there are 2 guys with almost identical systems) and some beer and thats not an exageration. now these guys arent the best sound guys, but it always comes down to cold hard cash. they have better gear and will even go lower to get a gig, just to be in it. because they dont need the money and they can upgrade when ever they want when new toys come out. vs. me who doesnt have deep pockets even though according to almost every fraking band i have mixed in the past 3 years i am one of the best engineers in the area. thats why i cant afford to upgrade right now. i have been working stead enough but after maintance and paying my stage manager there isnt alot left espcially with gas at 3.60 a gallon. i love my tops in terms of how they sound, and the abuse they can take. i am resonably please with thier output. what i am needing now is easier to set up. the dual 15 tops are stupid heavy and very deep which makes them awkward for 2 people to setup and impossible for 1 when the subs are setup verticaly. the single 15's i can setup on my own. as gas is getting more expensive and i am getitng more gigs and my stage manager is also the bass tech for a major national touring act he is about to be gone for some time. everything i own have casters or caster boards now, but that doesnt help if i cant stack my system. i am still doing rooms between 300-350 max occupancy. not larger rooms, but as im being seen as a better engineer than the comitetion i am having some people willing to pay for me and my rig more than the other guys. and also around here asking form the promoter to provoide loaders/ people to help set up and you get laughed at. so... this is where i am at, and why i am wondering about going to the single 15 tops. also about more power to what i have, i have tried bridgeing 1450's the my current tops, and i dont get 3 db i should from doubling the power at best after 2 minutes i get 1.3db of extra output. so even adding more power to the single 15 tops isnt gonna yeild more output. and 450 watts is just 50 shy of the program power handling mark that everyone yells about so much.
Awaken the Dead Productions
http://www.myspace.com/awakenthedeadproductions
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| Re: single or dual 15 tops? [message #322212 is a reply to message #322199 ] |
Mon, 12 May 2008 22:58 |
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Lester Moran
Messages: 372
Registered: November 2004
Location: USA |
Has No Life |
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| Jess Bruffett wrote on Tue, 13 May 2008 04:18 |
well to try and hit all the points. i dont have the budget to upgrade. tulsa is the worse market to try and do sound in. there are guys in tulsa who have rich parents and deep pockets that have 8 box jbl srx systems with qsc plx/macrotech amps and a&h gl3800 consoles and do gigs for 100-150 bucks(there are 2 guys with almost identical systems) and some beer and thats not an exageration. now these guys arent the best sound guys, but it always comes down to cold hard cash. they have better gear and will even go lower to get a gig, just to be in it. because they dont need the money and they can upgrade when ever they want when new toys come out. vs. me who doesnt have deep pockets even though according to almost every fraking band i have mixed in the past 3 years i am one of the best engineers in the area. thats why i cant afford to upgrade right now. i have been working stead enough but after maintance and paying my stage manager there isnt alot left espcially with gas at 3.60 a gallon. i love my tops in terms of how they sound, and the abuse they can take. i am resonably please with thier output. what i am needing now is easier to set up. the dual 15 tops are stupid heavy and very deep which makes them awkward for 2 people to setup and impossible for 1 when the subs are setup verticaly. the single 15's i can setup on my own. as gas is getting more expensive and i am getitng more gigs and my stage manager is also the bass tech for a major national touring act he is about to be gone for some time. everything i own have casters or caster boards now, but that doesnt help if i cant stack my system. i am still doing rooms between 300-350 max occupancy. not larger rooms, but as im being seen as a better engineer than the comitetion i am having some people willing to pay for me and my rig more than the other guys. and also around here asking form the promoter to provoide loaders/ people to help set up and you get laughed at. so... this is where i am at, and why i am wondering about going to the single 15 tops. also about more power to what i have, i have tried bridgeing 1450's the my current tops, and i dont get 3 db i should from doubling the power at best after 2 minutes i get 1.3db of extra output. so even adding more power to the single 15 tops isnt gonna yeild more output. and 450 watts is just 50 shy of the program power handling mark that everyone yells about so much.
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Jess,
#1. Learn to use Capitals. Makes it easier to read.
#2. Charge $650 minimum per gig. It gets you out of the muck, and creates the impression that you may be worth it. If you're as good as you say you you are, it will work.
#3. If the market / contractee won't cooperate with a requirement for four laborers, shit, move.
Jeez.
Sorry.
Les
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| Re: single or dual 15 tops? [message #322273 is a reply to message #322199 ] |
Tue, 13 May 2008 07:11 |
Mike {AB} Butler
Messages: 1798
Registered: April 2004
Location: Lynchburg, VA |
Has No Life |
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Jess,
I feel your pain, however, Les and Scott both make good points.
I kinda figured it was about portability. As Scott points out, only YOU can really know what you need to get best results. As far as the weight and setup issue, that's the one we all have to deal with. One possibility is to look at the setup offline to your event. Try to see IF there is a way to get the 215's up onto the sub by yourself. BUT AS ALWAYS.. Safety first! If you can't do something safely, don't try it!
Next, you do have a history of changing your mind - a LOT - sometimes just in the course of a single thread! As Scott points out, what is your business PLAN - written out, and executed to - look like? You say yourself that what you are doing isn't working well. IMO, going to a "lesser" box will make you take a step back.. and since your competition is wealthier than you are, you will be taking a bath.. if your backwards step is a bad one.. it could mean you are out of business.
My advice: try to find steps that are improvements.. not sideways, or back down. Maybe it's time to pony up for the lighter weight JBL's that the other guys have.. and beat them at their own game. Or, better yet, get into additional lines of work that will cost less to invest in, but make money. Lighting. Stage Drapes. Corporate work. Maybe as Les says, your market isn't large enough.. moving somewhere else? Definitely charge more. If the other guys undercut.. their loss in the long run. I assume you are doing something else as a day job? Let the gear sit.. if people aren't willing to pay, let the dudes have their $100 gigs.
Mike Butler
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| Re: single or dual 15 tops? [message #322360 is a reply to message #322277 ] |
Tue, 13 May 2008 12:13 |
Mike {AB} Butler
Messages: 1798
Registered: April 2004
Location: Lynchburg, VA |
Has No Life |
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| Mike McNany wrote on Tue, 13 May 2008 08:33 |
Why not get together with one of those more $ than brains guys and work as a briefcase engineer? Let them do the investment and heavy lifting and you do the mixing.
Or sub rent their systems?
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Mike,
That IS assuming that they will be willing to sub-rent to him. I know that some people treat this like a hobby, and like to NOT have the potential for their gear getting boo-booed. Also, if they would rather be out with a gig, they might say no.. or charge a ridiculous price.. if he was (un)lucky.
I know I don't know his (or their) situation. They might be very interested and serious. But, startup guys are generally into the hobby aspect of things.. Making rental to others not in their equation.
Regards,
Mike Butler
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| Re: single or dual 15 tops? [message #323307 is a reply to message #322360 ] |
Fri, 16 May 2008 01:56 |
Jess Bruffett
Messages: 299
Registered: July 2006
Location: Claremore, Oklahoma |
Has No Life |
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sub renting from the other guys isnt an option. they charge the same price whether they are doing a gig themselves, or renting to another sound company. i thought of that a bit ago. they also arent interested in hiring anyone to work with them at least in a tehcnical capacity. they pay thier buddies beer tab, or kick them alittle cash if then need help, and if they dont, they just bust it out to be in the scene, and look important. anywho, back to the main question, about single or dual 15 tops. how is the single 15 a step back?? i see it more as a step sideays. i was pretty much wondering what everyone else would use in my situation. and for the fellow club v users how much power do they put to s115v's to get them sounding good. will a 2450 in stereo cut it with those tops? my reasoning tells me i should be fine, but i like to get opinions and hear from other people just in case i am wrong.
[Updated on: Fri, 16 May 2008 01:57]
Awaken the Dead Productions
http://www.myspace.com/awakenthedeadproductions
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| Re: single or dual 15 tops? [message #323331 is a reply to message #323307 ] |
Fri, 16 May 2008 07:13 |
Mike {AB} Butler
Messages: 1798
Registered: April 2004
Location: Lynchburg, VA |
Has No Life |
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| Jess Bruffett wrote on Fri, 16 May 2008 02:56 |
sub renting from the other guys isnt an option. they charge the same price whether they are doing a gig themselves, or renting to another sound company. i thought of that a bit ago. they also arent interested in hiring anyone to work with them at least in a tehcnical capacity. they pay thier buddies beer tab, or kick them alittle cash if then need help, and if they dont, they just bust it out to be in the scene, and look important. anywho, back to the main question, about single or dual 15 tops. how is the single 15 a step back?? i see it more as a step sideays. i was pretty much wondering what everyone else would use in my situation. and for the fellow club v users how much power do they put to s115v's to get them sounding good. will a 2450 in stereo cut it with those tops? my reasoning tells me i should be fine, but i like to get opinions and hear from other people just in case i am wrong.
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Jess,
Kinda figured that was the case, as far as subrenting.. doesn't surprise me in the least.
As far as the mains, you said yourself the single has about 1 dB less. In the grand scheme of things, sure, -1dB SEEMS like not much to lose on.. but.. here is the thing I considered, and you might do well to as well: IF you are going to make a paradigm shift, WHY make it an equivalent.. why aren't you considering an upgrade? IF you aren't going to consider an upgrade, save your money.. until you can, or buy some units that will do justice to your business.. and maybe (dare I say it?) ace your competition?
Jess, it's obvious you came and asked the question because you had some reservations about doing this.. otherwise you would have just gone ahead and done it.
You can't generate a little extra income somewhere on the side to foot the bill towards a new set of cabinets that will climb you up to the next level? My advice.. start looking at some really improved, state-of-the-art gear.. instead of always having to "settle" for a lesser solution..
Regards,
Mike Butler
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| Re: single or dual 15 tops? [message #323349 is a reply to message #323336 ] |
Fri, 16 May 2008 08:42 |
Jess Bruffett
Messages: 299
Registered: July 2006
Location: Claremore, Oklahoma |
Has No Life |
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its not that i dont want to upgrade, i really do, and i actually have a little fund going for it. i want to do it all at once instead of piece by peice. i hate miss matched systems. the goal is in 12 months to move to a vrx/srx rig(6 vrx tops and 4 srx subs), rack and cabs. my efx rack is in great shape, i just spent some cash on a few older mixers to expand my channel capabilities, i bought a spirit-8 40 channel in a flight case with 3 power supplies for 2500 bucks, i also bought a 24 channel spirit 4-2, well its acutally 32 but it has 4 stereo channels 2 power supplies and a case aswell for 1500 bucks. so mixer efx and such wise, im good. i bought the 40 channel console because i figured its 40 good channels for sooo cheap and i know its been taken care of. i can move the 24 channel one on my own easily. so thats why i have focused attention now on my cabs. agian i need to start looking at setting the system up on my own, also the pole mount ability is really nice too. but back on point, thats why im not wanting to upgrade to higher end tops right now. i guess i have some thinking to do to really deside if the single tops are a move i really want to make... if anyone has any thing else to say, i would love to hear it. ohh also i did consider the monitor thing, but i have ocd and plugging the speakon in on the top of the cab, would drive me crazy. and with the single 12 tops, i would loose too much height. i can deal with the single 15 tops on hieght, but nothing smaller.
Awaken the Dead Productions
http://www.myspace.com/awakenthedeadproductions
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| Re: single or dual 15 tops? [message #323354 is a reply to message #323349 ] |
Fri, 16 May 2008 09:04 |
Mike McNany
Messages: 1217
Registered: April 2004
Location: Franklin PA, USA |
Has No Life |
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| Jess Bruffett wrote on Fri, 16 May 2008 09:42 |
Ohh, also I did consider the monitor thing, but I have OCD and plugging the speakon in on the top of the cab, would drive me crazy. and with the single 12 tops, I would loose too much height. I can deal with the single 15 tops on height, but nothing smaller.
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A little annoying, I agree. But it's easy enough to add a round panel mount NL4 to the backside or bottom of the monitor shaped Yamaha Club. In return, you'd have an extra set of monitors later and be easier to sell, more desirable, if needs be, IMHO.
Mike McNany
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