| Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #301374] |
Mon, 10 March 2008 11:41  |
 Dennis Malek
Messages: 24
Registered: March 2008
Location: Houston, Texas |
Here Often |
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Hello,
I need some help getting clean kick drum bass from my LA128's. I have put together a little DJ play back system utilizing one pair of LA215's and one pair of LA128's. The LA215's are powered by a QSC MX1500A in stereo mode. The LA128's are powered by two QSC PLX-3402's in bridged mono mode. I have insured right/left speaker phasing is correct and have inverted to LA215's phase to compensate for the QSC MX1500A's TRS signal reversal.
The sourse is CD's with typical DJ pre-amp mixer, 5 band stereo parametric equalizers, two way stereo crossover,and BBE Stereo Sonic Maximizer.
I have 30 HZ and below blocked by the QSC PLX-4302 filters and the clip limiters disabled. Initially had my crossover point at 120HZ and have moved it to 160HZ with some improvement. I'm still very unhappy. I have better kick drum response in my van stereo. I have chosen my test CD cuts by previewing them in my van and choosing the cleanest most powerful kick drum format tracks.
I'm by no means a sound professional. I have a good ear and have been playing FOH engineer for my church for a few years now. But I'm unable to achieve the sound that I know I should be able to with the above described system. I would welcome any and all suggestion of how to make my system sound the way I know it should? Please help!
Dennis Malek
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| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #301668 is a reply to message #301374 ] |
Tue, 11 March 2008 03:49  |
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Andy Peters
Messages: 5907
Registered: April 2004
Location: Tucson, AZ |
Has No Life
Contrarian |
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| Dennis Malek wrote on Mon, 10 March 2008 09:41 |
Hello,
I need some help getting clean kick drum bass from my LA128's. I have put together a little DJ play back system utilizing one pair of LA215's and one pair of LA128's. The LA215's are powered by a QSC MX1500A in stereo mode. The LA128's are powered by two QSC PLX-3402's in bridged mono mode. I have insured right/left speaker phasing is correct and have inverted to LA215's phase to compensate for the QSC MX1500A's TRS signal reversal.
The sourse is CD's with typical DJ pre-amp mixer, 5 band stereo parametric equalizers, two way stereo crossover,and BBE Stereo Sonic Maximizer.
I have 30 HZ and below blocked by the QSC PLX-4302 filters and the clip limiters disabled. Initially had my crossover point at 120HZ and have moved it to 160HZ with some improvement. I'm still very unhappy. I have better kick drum response in my van stereo. I have chosen my test CD cuts by previewing them in my van and choosing the cleanest most powerful kick drum format tracks.
I'm by no means a sound professional. I have a good ear and have been playing FOH engineer for my church for a few years now. But I'm unable to achieve the sound that I know I should be able to with the above described system. I would welcome any and all suggestion of how to make my system sound the way I know it should? Please help!
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Get rid of the Sonic Maximizer.
-a
"Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice."
"Your band isn't good enough for my PA."
"On the Internet, nobody can hear you mix a band."
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| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #302350 is a reply to message #302060 ] |
Thu, 13 March 2008 06:57 |
Dennis Malek
Messages: 24
Registered: March 2008
Location: Houston, Texas |
Here Often |
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Thanks for the input. I will have to purchase an electronic crossover.
I have concerns on my program source, CD.wav, and what extra I might have to do to the sound system hardware to achieve a live band performance "kick drum" sound? Chest Pound! I hear club bands performance with one pair of double 18" boxes with great "kick drum" presents. Now that's what I want to have with this DJ system. I know it must be accomplishable, I just need to find the kind folks that can teach me what is required. What are your thought on what I might need to do to compensate for my source or if I do? Thanks Much!
Dennis Malek
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| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #302476 is a reply to message #302350 ] |
Thu, 13 March 2008 15:26 |
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Andy Peters
Messages: 5907
Registered: April 2004
Location: Tucson, AZ |
Has No Life
Contrarian |
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| Dennis Malek wrote on Thu, 13 March 2008 04:57 |
Thanks for the input. I will have to purchase an electronic crossover.
I have concerns on my program source, CD.wav, and what extra I might have to do to the sound system hardware to achieve a live band performance "kick drum" sound? Chest Pound! I hear club bands performance with one pair of double 18" boxes with great "kick drum" presents. Now that's what I want to have with this DJ system. I know it must be accomplishable, I just need to find the kind folks that can teach me what is required. What are your thought on what I might need to do to compensate for my source or if I do? Thanks Much!
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If you want the live band sound, you need a live band.
What part of this do you not understand?
- a
"Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice."
"Your band isn't good enough for my PA."
"On the Internet, nobody can hear you mix a band."
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| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #302637 is a reply to message #302350 ] |
Fri, 14 March 2008 07:23 |
Mike {AB} Butler
Messages: 1796
Registered: April 2004
Location: Lynchburg, VA |
Has No Life |
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| Dennis Malek wrote on Thu, 13 March 2008 07:57 |
Thanks for the input. I will have to purchase an electronic crossover.
I have concerns on my program source, CD.wav, and what extra I might have to do to the sound system hardware to achieve a live band performance "kick drum" sound? Chest Pound! I hear club bands performance with one pair of double 18" boxes with great "kick drum" presents. Now that's what I want to have with this DJ system. I know it must be accomplishable, I just need to find the kind folks that can teach me what is required. What are your thought on what I might need to do to compensate for my source or if I do? Thanks Much!
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Dennis,
What Andy is possibly trying to say is that when the kick is done live, it can be Mic'd, EQ'd and processed as an INDIVIDUAL source - to get the desired sound. Once it's part of a recording, it's a lot tougher to do EQ'ing that won't negatively impact the rest of the recording.
I hear what you are saying about you liking the way your car sterso reproduces the kick.. but I bet those are artifacts of your car system, accoustic environment (the small enclosed space of a car), and the recording all conspiring to produce that "desired" sound. Your DJ system is going to have a different set of artifacts, and so is the accoustic environment (larger space will make something that normally sounds tight in a small space sound unfocused or blurred), and time delay between your top boxes and subs will have a negative impact as well.
Personal rant here: Again, I have to say it - along with a few dozen others.. but people are too concerned about the kick. Sure, it's PART of the recording or live event.. but I'm real tired of hearing a perfect kick when I can't hear the vocal, 1/3 of the instruments, and none of the dynamic range of the performance.
Regards,
Mike Butler
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| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #303384 is a reply to message #302476 ] |
Mon, 17 March 2008 08:16 |
Dennis Malek
Messages: 24
Registered: March 2008
Location: Houston, Texas |
Here Often |
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Look at the way you do me.
Just cuz I show up on the scene with a Sonic-Maximizer, cut me some slack, it's to the curb.
Now what's the problem, ain't you up for the challenge?
Does everyone else think it can't be done?
I know you dudes know how to make it happen.
Help me.
Dennis Malek
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| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #303391 is a reply to message #302637 ] |
Mon, 17 March 2008 08:38 |
Dennis Malek
Messages: 24
Registered: March 2008
Location: Houston, Texas |
Here Often |
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Mike,
Thank you very much for taking your time and commenting.
I believe your right on with the canned music along with sound system attributes being the culprit.
Just as it has always been with canned music, all is not canned the same! For this reason, I selected CD.wav that out performed other CD's to used as test tracks when trying to achieve the sound I'm looking for. I recognize the musical spectrum ALL need's to be quality for a quality performance.
I'm just so disappointed in the EAW128's, or am I missing something else? I sweep a tight parametric EQ band width from 20 to 200 Hz on a CD track with good kick drum and can never really find it? What is my issue? May be I need to return to horn subs?
I sincerely appreciate your expertise and suggestions.
Dennis Malek
Dennis Malek
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| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #303513 is a reply to message #303444 ] |
Mon, 17 March 2008 14:38 |
Dennis Malek
Messages: 24
Registered: March 2008
Location: Houston, Texas |
Here Often |
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Thank you for your comments. I really do appreciate everyones comments and listen with open ears.
I do indeed understand what you say about multiple frequencies being required in combination and I can appreciate that.
Now with that said, is the challenge un-accomplishable? Is not possible to play a well recorded CD and accent the low end so as to give that live sound presents? And of course I would like to do it with only 4 boxes, two subs and two tops.
I have had much better success in the past with much lower wattage and horn loaded subs. Maybe this is what the doctor ordered? Your Thoughts.
Come On.......
Dennis Malek
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| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #303516 is a reply to message #303506 ] |
Mon, 17 March 2008 14:53 |
Dennis Malek
Messages: 24
Registered: March 2008
Location: Houston, Texas |
Here Often |
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Thanks Mike
Both of yours and Ivan's explanations make complete sense to me.
Now I just hate to give up on a project especially if I'm told it can't be done.
For easy of communication I have been saying "Kick Drum" but as many have pointed out there is much more than just Kick Drum for great sound. I want to achieve sound that when folks hear it they say, That's the best damn DJ system I have ever heard.
I suppose I was naive to think that a couple double 18" cabs with 3400 watts on each along with my existing DJ rig would give me the sound I was looking for.
Thanks, Dennis
Dennis Malek
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| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #303537 is a reply to message #303516 ] |
Mon, 17 March 2008 15:47 |
Mike {AB} Butler
Messages: 1796
Registered: April 2004
Location: Lynchburg, VA |
Has No Life |
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| Dennis Malek wrote on Mon, 17 March 2008 15:53 |
For easy of communication I have been saying "Kick Drum" but as many have pointed out there is much more than just Kick Drum for great sound. I want to achieve sound that when folks hear it they say, That's the best damn DJ system I have ever heard.
I suppose I was naive to think that a couple double 18" cabs with 3400 watts on each along with my existing DJ rig would give me the sound I was looking for.
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In searching for a holy grail of better sound, there are so many things that help: flatter frequency response, better headroom, better acoustical environment, and also setting things up properly, dialing them in properly, THEN finally creating a mix that is what others can acknowledge as being pleasant.
The sad fact is that I have only heard 2 DJ's in my 34 years that were really GOOD.. the rest all felt that "louder was better" - even at the expense of people's hearing, sound quality, and better music. Distortion because they don't stay within the limits of the system.. and boomy bass.. because MidBass seems to be the thing that so many want in their sound. You avoid those 2 things.. and keep a nice listenable balance up.. I would gladly add you to that small list. (BTW, I'm not saying other DJ's can't sound good.. just that I've not heard very many!) 
I'm not a DJ.. just a live-audio guy.. but, IF I had Double 18 cabs with 3600W behind them.. no, waitaminnit, I'm at 3200 myself for my subs..  THAT gives me enough to maybe do a couple hundred peeps tops.. without giving up too much in sound quality. 
Regards,
Mike Butler
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 Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #303557 is a reply to message #303516 ] |
Mon, 17 March 2008 17:10 |
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Ivan Beaver
Messages: 4353
Registered: January 2005
Location: Atlanta Ga area |
Has No Life |
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| Dennis Malek wrote on Mon, 17 March 2008 15:53 |
I want to achieve sound that when folks hear it they say, That's the best damn DJ system I have ever heard.
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The REAL question is what do you mean by "the best". In any world-especially DJ, that takes on MANY MANY different meanings. Loudest, cleanest, lowest, most accurate, most pleasing to listen to and on and on.
Different people look for different things, you are not going to please all of them. Yes there are extremes, but you will find if you search hear people talk about how distortion is what some people are looking for (and they determine that is what is "good"  )and for others it is all about accuracy.
For "the best" in my book it would be a system that has a good linear transfer with flat response down to at least 30Hz and can get loud without seeming to be loud.
Others could care less about that and simply want a system to "sound" loud and kick you in the chest.
Very different systems
Can I have some more talent in the monitors--PLEASE?
Ivan Beaver
dB Audio & Video Inc.
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| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #303683 is a reply to message #303537 ] |
Tue, 18 March 2008 07:38 |
Dennis Malek
Messages: 24
Registered: March 2008
Location: Houston, Texas |
Here Often |
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I understand your comments on DJ's and I have experienced the same. Far and few between that really care about the sound. Now I, on the other hand can provide seamless segways all night but if the sound is not right all is lost in my book. I need no critics because I'm my worst critic. I tweak each track after completing the track to track transition recognizing this is required to provide the best quality sound for that tracks recording. I do not DJ behind the speakers for this reason.
Now back to the problem at hand.
Dennis Malek
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