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Forum Home » Sound Reinforcement » The Basement » OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share
| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322737 is a reply to message #321867 ] |
Wed, 14 May 2008 11:53   |
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 Scott Raymond (Scott R)
Messages: 1074
Registered: April 2004
Location: South Central NE |
Has No Life |
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| Charlie Zureki wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 20:18 |
While I realize I misspoke regarding petroleum as a fuel for generating Electricity. I was referring to it's sister industry of Coal. Sorry and Thank You, for pointing that out.
While I understand the methods for generating Electricity in the Past and Present, has been driven by the Economy, I believe in the Future it will be driven by Desperation.
Observation: Throughout History mankind has been driven to develop new technologies and products because of desperation, in as much for the reason of greed.
Pump manufacturers were really keen on the Idea of using Mass Flow Meters, but, then later claimed they couldn't because of higher manufacturing costs that could not be passed on to the Stations.
(the amount of regulations regarding Gasoline Pumps were astronomical at the time.)
The Individual States still send a guy with an "old technology" prover to check customers complaints. 
It's possible things have changed, but, I wouldn't bet on it.
P.S. The density of a fluid will vary from Temperature and Pressure.
Thanks,
Hammer
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Your statements about inaccuracies are borne out by an article in the Newspaper recently about pump errors. Someone had filled up at a station and put more gas in than the tank capacity. I think reference was more to calibration errors than anything but it does happen maybe more than we'd like to hear. One thing mentioned was that those errors likely happen both ways though a station will likely be quicker to have a pump re-calibrated if its reading low. I believe it mentioned to call the State Attorney General about complaints. As to temperature affecting calibration there may be more to it than we might realize. While it is true that underground tanks stay relatively constant, fuel is coming into those tanks from the tankers on a regular basis and that is a variable depending on outside temperature, how long the fuels been on the road and what the fuel came out of at the supplier, etc. There could be substantial variations in some cases, however I don't think that you can go by the buy it in the morning rule as being reliable. If a tanker with warm fuel just filled the tank and the pumps don't compensate correctly you may get shorted. I've also heard you might get some water that's stired up from the bottom of the tanks from filling them but that may be more scare than fact.
[Updated on: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:54]
Scott Raymond 
ssray AT gtmc DOT net
Trinity EFC
Funktion Audio
Phelps County PAC
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| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322767 is a reply to message #322741 ] |
Wed, 14 May 2008 12:47 |
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Hi Lee
The ICE in a Prius is rated at 76bhp@5000rpm, the electric motor provides an additional 67bhp@1200rpm, however the system can only deliver 28bhp when running on battery only. This is not really sufficient for anything but gentle progress when the ICE is not running, but in traffic I guess that may be sufficient sometimes. Hybrids take advantage of the fact that ICE's are least efficient at low rpm and on small throttle openings, by filling that hole with stored energy a reasonable improvement in mileage can (with a careful foot) be realized.
Note that there are several European cars (mainly diesels) of similar size and performance to the Prius that achieve similar mileage without the complexity of the hybrid approach.
Ian
I can say with some certainty that this was an activity quite unknown in Iowa!
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| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322781 is a reply to message #322767 ] |
Wed, 14 May 2008 13:04 |
Tom Bourke
Messages: 340
Registered: April 2004
Location: Wisconsin |
Has No Life |
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The other advantage to the hybrid is the engine can be sized for average need instead of peak HP.
Also after driving one for a while I do feel they made several compromises towards acceleration over MPG.
I also agree that the Prius system is not the only way to do it. In a passenger car the advantages are not fully used. Where DRASTIC improvements could be made is in the truck/van/cube van market.
The Prius system is not that complex mechanically. Yes there is a bunch of computer programing but ALL modern cars and trucks have that.
I have a mild form of Dyslexia that affects my ability to spell. I do use spell checking to help but it does not always work. My form of Dyslexia does not affect my reading. Dyslexics of the world untie! http://incertclevername.com
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| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322789 is a reply to message #322737 ] |
Wed, 14 May 2008 13:41 |
Charlie Zureki
Messages: 533
Registered: April 2008
Location: Detroit Area |
Has No Life |
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Scott,
I am not aware of any Newspaper article, but as I had stated in a previous post, my experience from a past project is where I received my info.
Regarding Gas station Storage Tank readings, if they used a load cell they'd get better readings than the current method of a story pole, or measuring stick. That is the only method I've seen the local stations use in my area. If someone told me that they observed another measuring system elsewhere I wouldn't necessarily be surprised.
Gasoline's Volume changes with Temp and Pressure. Does it go through Temp and Pressure changes when being pumped? Yes, of course. What's the head pressure of a pump when dispensing Gasoline from 18' underground? Many Variables can affect the "amount" of Gasoline pumped by the old style volumetric pumps.
I'd think that the pumps are pressure and temp Compensated in Mountainous regions.
The Gasoline Manufacturers put Isopropyl Alcohol into the fuel(solubilizes the water) to allow the water to be passed out the Engine.
Unless your getting a high percentage of water, then your safe, Although your efficiency suffers.
Cheers,
Hammer
Be prepared, you'll need it!
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| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322846 is a reply to message #322778 ] |
Wed, 14 May 2008 16:44 |
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| John Roberts {JR} wrote on Wed, 14 May 2008 14:00 |
Thanx, I may be a little confused... Alternators were still new when I was taking such things apart. I recall the major difference was AC vs DC raw output and charging at lower rpm.
I could be wrong about absence of brushes but they're not like old school DC motors/generators with all that brush arcing from stepping between multiple windings. The generators extracted pulsed DC from the rotational motion by stepping between multiple sequential windings. The alternator OTOH used one (?) winding and solid state rectifiers to convert the "alternating " current to DC.
or not...
JR
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From what I know about DC generators in diesel electric locomotives, I think the complexity lied in the commutator that allowed a rotating body to produce DC in the first place. The commutators often resulted in severe arcing and fires. Once cheap rectification became commonplace, DC generators were replaced with AC counterparts and rectifiers. I'm not sure why the traction motors remained DC... maybe because the circuitry to properly control AC induction motors was not fully developed. I'm guessing those same commutator limitations affected DC generators in automobiles.
Ryan Lantzy
"In the beginner's mind the possibilities are many, in the expert's mind there are few."
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| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322856 is a reply to message #322846 ] |
Wed, 14 May 2008 17:33 |
Charlie Zureki
Messages: 533
Registered: April 2008
Location: Detroit Area |
Has No Life |
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Traction Motors remained DC on Locomotives because by reversing the polarity on the input of the DC. motor gave you forward or reverse without extra expense.
Hammer
Be prepared, you'll need it!
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| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322857 is a reply to message #322667 ] |
Wed, 14 May 2008 17:37 |
Charlie Zureki
Messages: 533
Registered: April 2008
Location: Detroit Area |
Has No Life |
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The Sun IS a star.
Hammer
Be prepared, you'll need it!
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| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322906 is a reply to message #322856 ] |
Wed, 14 May 2008 19:34 |
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| Charlie Zureki wrote on Wed, 14 May 2008 18:33 |
Traction Motors remained DC on Locomotives because by reversing the polarity on the input of the DC. motor gave you forward or reverse without extra expense.
Hammer
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That doesn't really make much sense. You can reverse an AC induction motor by just reversing the order in which you energize the fields.
Ryan Lantzy
"In the beginner's mind the possibilities are many, in the expert's mind there are few."
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| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322943 is a reply to message #321653 ] |
Wed, 14 May 2008 21:19 |
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Mike Butler (media)
Messages: 2458
Registered: October 2005
Location: southern connecticut |
Has No Life |
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Oh and speaking of things that are supposed to save energy, what is up and does anyone have any real, solid, verifiable information about this thing? Or even an accurate description of what it exactly is and does?
http://www.power-save1200.com/1200?gclid=CLHXgaW2ppMCFRKLxwo dOBaAnw
OK, so given the premise that we use watts but the electric company bills us for volt-amps, anything that gets the power factor up closer to 1 or 100% has got to save money, right? So how do we do that, with a bank of caps to offset the inductive reactance of motor-driven appliances? But then, how do they know how much capacitance is needed in the "typical" house? They have no way of knowing how many air conditioners, refrigerators, well pumps, etc. I have. Plus any heating elements (stove, oven, etc,) which are huge gobblers of electricity are purely resistive loads with no power factor losses. I first heard about this from a story on the local TV news, which instantly made me suspicious because that's the first place where I heard that we need to unplug hair dryers when not in use to save energy (I have never seen a hair dryer with any components that would draw any quiescent current, unlike some home entertainment devices). To call me skeptical would be an understatement. My bu11$h!+ detector is going into Defcon 3. Somebody, please help me sort out this mess of media hype.
http://www.mikebutlermedia.com
Mike Butler Media * AV/video production * corporate event production * presentation services * marketing support * creative research * graphic design * photography
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| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322952 is a reply to message #322943 ] |
Wed, 14 May 2008 21:36 |
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Chris Davis
Messages: 1454
Registered: May 2004
Location: USA |
Has No Life |
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| Mike Butler (media) wrote on Wed, 14 May 2008 22:19 |
So how do we do that, with a bank of caps to offset the inductive reactance of motor-driven appliances? But then, how do they know how much capacitance is needed in the "typical" house? They have no way of knowing how many air conditioners, refrigerators, well pumps, etc. I have. Plus any heating elements (stove, oven, etc,) which are huge gobblers of electricity are purely resistive loads with no power factor losses.
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Nahh, what would that accomplish. Too similar to the Sonic Maximizer "knowing" your crossover points, et al. 
Caps are used on CP for more practical uses like single phase motors. They have a 90° electrical phase offset at 60 Hz (and are wired in series with one of two motor coils). Nevermind the combined reactance and resultant impedance you get there.
Start with a primary coil in the motor, one that is positioned at 0° and has no cap in series.
Add a secondary coil to the motor, place it at a 90° magnetic polar offset to the primary coil (the primary one not having a series cap and the secondary being in series with a cap) and now you have a solid 360° of drive off a single phase circuit.
[Updated on: Wed, 14 May 2008 21:53]
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| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322962 is a reply to message #322906 ] |
Wed, 14 May 2008 22:08 |
Charlie Zureki
Messages: 533
Registered: April 2008
Location: Detroit Area |
Has No Life |
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Yes,
I understand AC Motors, but,I was talking about in the past. The technology for using AC motors in Diesel/Electric Locomotives is fairly recent. Probably used for the first time in these Diesel combinations in the late 1960's or early 1970's. Although there were high powered AC motors in other uses, they did not have a way to control the big polyphase motors, until high powered Semiconductor devices were developed. They developed a "speed" control specifically designed for this new application of using these AC motors.
Remember: 1 meg EE proms didn't even exist 20 years ago!
40 meg hard drives were the biggest you could get in 1988.
Mag-Lev Trains were a dream.
Cheers,
Hammer
Be prepared, you'll need it!
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| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322997 is a reply to message #322943 ] |
Wed, 14 May 2008 23:41 |
Art Welter
Messages: 445
Registered: October 2007
Location: New Mexico |
Has No Life |
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Mike,
The unit seems to be taking motor loads and spreading them across both power legs instead of one, so the amperage drawn is cut in half per leg.
The demo shows that the amperage drops from 5.7 amps on one leg to 2.85 (1/2 the) amps on that same leg, but does not show the other leg, but I’d bet it would also show 2.85 amps. The demo does not blatantly lie, but without showing the amperage of both legs on a 240 device, which the unit is, certainly has an error of omission.
I don’t know how the device splits the 120 v motor across both legs (240 v), but if that is what it does, it still wouldn’t reduce power consumption or cost.
Looks like another placebo effect, people get concerned about energy cost, install unit, start turning off unused lights, and surprise, their bill goes down.
I’ll be waiting to hear how the OP’s mileage tests go. 10-15% savings can be made by changing driving habits and pumping up tires, about all the water injectors claim, which keeps people thinking that the device they paid $$$ for is doing the job.
[Updated on: Wed, 14 May 2008 23:44]
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