|
|
Welcome to the ProSoundWeb sound reinforcement forums, home of more than 50,000 audio professionals. |
|
|
Important Notice: Full Names are required in the forum; please put your full name in the alias field in your profile. |
Forum Home » Sound Reinforcement » The Basement » OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share
| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322490 is a reply to message #322483 ] |
Tue, 13 May 2008 19:03   |
 Art Welter
Messages: 487
Registered: October 2007
Location: New Mexico |
Has No Life |
|
|
JR,
Let’s not start tilting at windmills...
I’d be willing to bet a lot more birds fly into plate glass than will into whirring blades, but there does not seem to be much restriction on putting windows in buildings.
But since you mentioned Hydropower, and the OP was about burning hydrogen and oxygen derived from H2O, anyone know if “burning up water” would eventually create a net reduction of that precious commodity?
[Updated on: Tue, 13 May 2008 19:04]
|
|
|
| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322491 is a reply to message #322490 ] |
Tue, 13 May 2008 19:10 |
|
Art asked
"anyone know if “burning up water” would eventually create a net reduction of that precious commodity?
The City of Barcelona received it's first tanker load of water today, their own supply has dwindled to less than 18% of the 'norm' after a drought that began in 2005.
Maybe the reduction has begun?
I can say with some certainty that this was an activity quite unknown in Iowa!
|
|
| |
| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322512 is a reply to message #322490 ] |
Tue, 13 May 2008 20:17 |
 |
John Roberts {JR}
Messages: 6874
Registered: April 2004
Location: MS |
Has No Life |
|
|
| Art Welter wrote on Tue, 13 May 2008 19:03 |
JR,
Let’s not start tilting at windmills...
I’d be willing to bet a lot more birds fly into plate glass than will into whirring blades, but there does not seem to be much restriction on putting windows in buildings.
But since you mentioned Hydropower, and the OP was about burning hydrogen and oxygen derived from H2O, anyone know if “burning up water” would eventually create a net reduction of that precious commodity?
|
Water used in that aluminum reaction kind of gets torn in half with the oxygen bound to the aluminum, but when you burn the hydrogen if picks up free oxygen from the atmosphere and makes water again.
Real issue with water is clean ground water... Ramped up farming for food and/or fuel consumes much water. We can extract water from seawater but that takes energy. If the caps are melting and oceans rising, we can just drink it.
I wouldn't hold my breath on that aluminum system for anything other than emergency, "just add water" power sources.
JR
PS: I guess you need to keep that aluminum stuff in low humidity too.. there goes MS.
https://www.resotune.com/
"A bus in a console is spelled with one 's', but you can buss your girlfriend while riding in a bus."
|
|
|
| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322530 is a reply to message #321653 ] |
Tue, 13 May 2008 21:17 |
Tom Bourke
Messages: 394
Registered: April 2004
Location: Wisconsin |
Has No Life |
|
|
A couple of thoughts:
1, All of our energy comes from the sun (or nuclear) Oil is just prehistoric sun light concentrated. Wind is caused by thermal gradients due to solar heating. Hydro is powered by the evaporation/ rain cycle. Crops grow from sun and we process them as food. We as humans just need to figure out efficient ways to use it. Notice I said "WAYS" there is no one solution or best technology.
2, Nature is full of examples on how to take advantage of this.
3, We have great battery technology, and other technology, much of it is encumbered in patents to people who don't want it sold.
4, We may know how to build more efficient ICE and cars in general but I cant buy most of them in the US.
5, politicians are trying to solve the wrong problems in the wrong ways.
I have a mild form of Dyslexia that affects my ability to spell. I do use spell checking to help but it does not always work. My form of Dyslexia does not affect my reading. Dyslexics of the world untie! http://incertclevername.com
|
|
|
| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322535 is a reply to message #322129 ] |
Tue, 13 May 2008 21:32 |
Tom Bourke
Messages: 394
Registered: April 2004
Location: Wisconsin |
Has No Life |
|
|
| SteveKirby wrote on Mon, 12 May 2008 19:01 |
Somehow this seems like an extra conversion loss. The jet engine produces rotational energy and reactive energy (the propulsive thrust). The heat of the output is simply an inefficiency of burning the fuel. I would imagine that there are more efficient ways of using biofuel to boil water. Now if they were using the jet engines to turn generators, and then capturing the heat to boil water for additional conversion efficiency, maybe.
|
Driving a generator and using that to drive electric motors is just another way to control the energy used to move the vehicle. In a regular car there is a transmition that channels the low power band of an ICE to the wide RPM/tourque requirements of the tires. The advantage of the generator/motor combo is that it can keep the engin in a very narrow high effechancy powerband, better than a 5 spd transmision. In the Prius the smaller of the 2 motors is used to load down the ICE to keep it at relativly low RPM. It also gives us the ability to store energy to help even out the load on the ICE. The Prius and dielse electric locomotivs are just ICE powerplants with an electric transmision/drivertain.
I have a mild form of Dyslexia that affects my ability to spell. I do use spell checking to help but it does not always work. My form of Dyslexia does not affect my reading. Dyslexics of the world untie! http://incertclevername.com
|
|
|
| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322548 is a reply to message #322530 ] |
Tue, 13 May 2008 21:47 |
|
| Tom Bourke wrote on Tue, 13 May 2008 21:17 |
A couple of thoughts:
1, All of our energy comes from the sun (or nuclear)
|
So where did the heavy elements (not to mention the sun itself) come from!
All our energy comes from gravitational forces, including the sun.
I can say with some certainty that this was an activity quite unknown in Iowa!
|
|
|
| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322597 is a reply to message #322535 ] |
Tue, 13 May 2008 23:16 |
|
| Tom Bourke wrote on Tue, 13 May 2008 22:32 |
In the Prius the smaller of the 2 motors is used to load down the ICE to keep it at relativly low RPM. It also gives us the ability to store energy to help even out the load on the ICE. The Prius and dielse electric locomotivs are just ICE powerplants with an electric transmision/drivertain.
|
AFAIK, the Prius does not work like a Diesel-Electric Locomotive. When the ICE is running, it directly drives the wheels via a continuously variable transmission, and also charges the batteries with the spare power it makes. The simultaneous charging and direct drive of the wheels is accomplished using a load balancing device. It keeps the gas engine in it's maximum efficiency all the time. Coincidentally, the gas engine only turns on over a certain speed.
Ryan Lantzy
"In the beginner's mind the possibilities are many, in the expert's mind there are few."
|
|
|
| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322600 is a reply to message #322597 ] |
Tue, 13 May 2008 23:22 |
|
| Ryan Lantzy wrote on Tue, 13 May 2008 23:16 |
| Tom Bourke wrote on Tue, 13 May 2008 22:32 |
In the Prius the smaller of the 2 motors is used to load down the ICE to keep it at relativly low RPM. It also gives us the ability to store energy to help even out the load on the ICE. The Prius and dielse electric locomotivs are just ICE powerplants with an electric transmision/drivertain.
|
AFAIK, the Prius does not work like a Diesel-Electric Locomotive. When the ICE is running, it directly drives the wheels via a continuously variable transmission, and also charges the batteries with the spare power it makes. The simultaneous charging and direct drive of the wheels is accomplished using a load balancing device. It keeps the gas engine in it's maximum efficiency all the time. Coincidentally, the gas engine only turns on over a certain speed.
|
" Coincidentally, the gas engine only turns on over a certain speed."
Actually over a particular throttle opening, demand more than a small fraction of a G of acceleration and it's the gas that gets you there.
But you can feel better about the illusion!
I can say with some certainty that this was an activity quite unknown in Iowa!
|
|
| |
| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322679 is a reply to message #322600 ] |
Wed, 14 May 2008 09:25 |
 |
Mike Butler (media)
Messages: 2535
Registered: October 2005
Location: southern connecticut |
Has No Life |
|
|
| Ian Hunt wrote on Wed, 14 May 2008 00:22 |
| Ryan Lantzy wrote on Tue, 13 May 2008 23:16 |
| Tom Bourke wrote on Tue, 13 May 2008 22:32 |
In the Prius the smaller of the 2 motors is used to load down the ICE to keep it at relativly low RPM. It also gives us the ability to store energy to help even out the load on the ICE. The Prius and dielse electric locomotivs are just ICE powerplants with an electric transmision/drivertain.
|
AFAIK, the Prius does not work like a Diesel-Electric Locomotive. When the ICE is running, it directly drives the wheels via a continuously variable transmission, and also charges the batteries with the spare power it makes. The simultaneous charging and direct drive of the wheels is accomplished using a load balancing device. It keeps the gas engine in it's maximum efficiency all the time. Coincidentally, the gas engine only turns on over a certain speed.
|
" Coincidentally, the gas engine only turns on over a certain speed."
Actually over a particular throttle opening, demand more than a small fraction of a G of acceleration and it's the gas that gets you there.
But you can feel better about the illusion!
|
That's right, diesel-electric locomotives (which have been in mass production since the 1930s) and the Prius have a completely different configuration. The shaft output of the diesel has absolutely no mechanical connection to the drive wheels, it is used solely to turn the main generator and other ancillary power generation devices. In fact, this type of locomotive could operate with no diesel power running at all if fed with an external source of electricity. The EMD FL-9 was developed for the New Haven to NYC run, and it would switch over on-the-fly from diesel operation to third-rail somewhere around the NY city limits (anywhere south of Woodlawn Junction, but usually around 125th St.) and go totally electric the rest of the way to Grand Central Terminal through the Park Avenue Tunnel where fuel-burning engines are prohibited.
The diesel engine-to-generator-to-traction motors setup of your typical diesel-electric locomotive has proven itself to be by far the most practical means of getting power to the wheels, not just because of the ability to match the wide range of road speeds to the narrow RPM powerband of a diesel, but also due to the complexity of the gearing and shafts that would be required for mechanical transmission of power to the multiple drive axles of a railroad locomotive.
And as Ryan L. pointed out, the Prius does have a CVT.
[Updated on: Wed, 14 May 2008 09:29]
http://www.mikebutlermedia.com
Mike Butler Media * AV/video production * corporate event production * presentation services * marketing support * creative research * graphic design * photography
|
|
|
| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322694 is a reply to message #322597 ] |
Wed, 14 May 2008 10:02 |
Tom Bourke
Messages: 394
Registered: April 2004
Location: Wisconsin |
Has No Life |
|
|
| Ryan Lantzy wrote on Tue, 13 May 2008 23:16 |
AFAIK, the Prius does not work like a Diesel-Electric Locomotive. When the ICE is running, it directly drives the wheels via a continuously variable transmission, and also charges the batteries with the spare power it makes. The simultaneous charging and direct drive of the wheels is accomplished using a load balancing device. It keeps the gas engine in it's maximum efficiency all the time. Coincidentally, the gas engine only turns on over a certain speed.
|
The point I was making is that the Prius and a Diesel electric both use a generator-electric motor combo as a variable transmission to help keep the ICE in its most efficient range. Yes the Prius has a gear system but the electric motors are a big part of how it works. At highway speed some of the rotational force of the engine is transfered via an electric path, the rest does go threw the gear system.
Also yes the Prius has 3 RPM ranges for the ICE: off, high efficiency low RPM, high output high RPM. All the drive energy comes from the ICE, just some of it is transfered threw the electric motors and batteries.
The load balancing device is a planetary gear system. The sun gear is on MG1 (small, normally works as a generator, starts the ICE when needed) The planetary gear carrier is driven by the ICE. MG2 (the large one) is on the ring gear and also drives the tires. MG2 acts as a motor for driving and a generator for regenerative breaking.
http://eahart.com/prius/psd/
I have a mild form of Dyslexia that affects my ability to spell. I do use spell checking to help but it does not always work. My form of Dyslexia does not affect my reading. Dyslexics of the world untie! http://incertclevername.com
|
|
|
| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322713 is a reply to message #322679 ] |
Wed, 14 May 2008 10:49 |
|
| Mike Butler (media) wrote on Wed, 14 May 2008 10:25 |
The diesel engine-to-generator-to-traction motors setup of your typical diesel-electric locomotive has proven itself to be by far the most practical means of getting power to the wheels, not just because of the ability to match the wide range of road speeds to the narrow RPM powerband of a diesel, but also due to the complexity of the gearing and shafts that would be required for mechanical transmission of power to the multiple drive axles of a railroad locomotive.
And as Ryan L. pointed out, the Prius does have a CVT.
|
That brings up another good question... if the efficiency of the Prius (or any hybrid) comes from keeping the ICE in it's most efficient power band, why don't CVTs just replace conventional multi-speed transmissions? I thought that was the benefit of a CVT in the first place...
Other than the pesky amount of time it takes to get the ICE from idle to max efficiency and the time spent idling. Seems to me they could get most of the benefits of the Prius by just using regenerative braking and a battery, and using the motor/generators on each wheel to start the vehicle from a stop and power it under a certain speed. Thus allowing the ICE to remain off when the vehicle is stopped. Though, from my calculations a regenerative brake would yield WAY more energy than a battery or charging system could possibly accept.
Ryan Lantzy
"In the beginner's mind the possibilities are many, in the expert's mind there are few."
|
|
| |
| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322721 is a reply to message #322095 ] |
Wed, 14 May 2008 11:22 |
 |
Scott Raymond (Scott R)
Messages: 1104
Registered: April 2004
Location: South Central NE |
Has No Life |
|
|
| John Roberts {JR} wrote on Mon, 12 May 2008 17:39 |
| Andy Zimmerman wrote on Mon, 12 May 2008 17:13 |
And here I always thought that they called it an "alternator" because it outputs "alternating" current....
|
I think you are correct about the derivation of the name, but that internal AC is converted to DC before it gets output anywhere. Tim is correct about general function and loading. Both modern alternators, and the old generators use regulators to activate or rest the charging circuits as needed based on battery/system voltage.
Alternators are capable of charging at lower RPM than generators, and don't require the mechanical brush contacts, so are more reliable.
JR
|
Just a note JR. Maybe Alternator technology has changed in the last 4 or 5 years but most automotive alternators did use brushes on the rotor. They were a slip ring type, not segmented as they just supplied dc for the field winding on the rotor. They usually were fairly reliable as they on carried the smaller current to energise the field winding. I haven't worked on and alternator in 5 or so years as you just can't get parts for them any more. It's more plug and play. I used to replace regulators, rectifiers, brushes and bearings but I think that's now a thing of the past.
Scott Raymond 
ssray AT gtmc DOT net
Trinity EFC
Funktion Audio
Phelps County PAC
|
|
| |
| Pages (14): [ 6 ] |
  |
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Wed Aug 20 02:47:37 CDT 2008
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.02249 seconds |
|
Forum Home
Login
Forum Search
Register
FAQ
