| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #321870 is a reply to message #321864 ] |
Sun, 11 May 2008 20:21   |
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 John Roberts {JR}
Messages: 7629
Registered: April 2004
Location: MS |
Has No Life |
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| Phillip Graham wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 20:05 |
Point taken. I suppose since I have interest in working in this area it is just as well that people are misinformed, will give me something to do 
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That's the only reason to appreciate all the ignorance, but I believe we would be better off with a little better understanding of general science among the voting public and their representatives.
I very much enjoy the technical detail you bring to these discussions.
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Plastic and airplanes, two technologies enabled by oil (especially air travel!). The energy density of any alternative doesn't cut it. Of course the economic question there is what will the incredible increase in cost of air travel from fuel do to the industry, which should be a factor long before the ultimate oil supply runs out. Zeppelins anyone?
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Zepplins get a bad rap, just like nuclear power. I would differentiate petroleum for making plastics from airplane fuel. I believe they have already successfully liquefied coal for use in airborne turbines, and Virgin did a test flight with bio-fuel. So again, we'll survive with minor economic adjustments.
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As I have said before, the fact that we do not directly obtain all of our energy from nuclear sources (including the Sun) makes us the exception, rather than the rule, in the Universe.
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+1 as usual... It's an end game that we will have a hard time avoiding despite our ignorant preferences.
JR
https://www.resotune.com/
"A bus in a console is spelled with one 's', but you can buss your girlfriend while riding in a bus."
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| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #321874 is a reply to message #321840 ] |
Sun, 11 May 2008 20:38 |
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John Roberts {JR}
Messages: 7629
Registered: April 2004
Location: MS |
Has No Life |
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| Patrick Tracy wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 19:36 |
I guess I was reacting to what seemed to be an attitude that "it can't be done." Probably overreacting. I do appreciate my less logical expressions being pointed out.
I would say that there seems to be a viable battery technology that has been left out of most conversations of this sort, flywheels developed by Jack Bitterly and others. They circumvent the whole issue of chemistry as energy storage. They don't need replacing every couple of years. They charge as fast as they discharge making regenerative braking efficient.
Even if that particular technology doesn't pan out there are endless ways of manipulating energy. It's our willingness to accept the status quo that is the biggest obstacle to a better solution than simply burning stuff that's been laying around. I don't accept that the only reasonable energy sourced is fossil fuel.
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Flywheel power was real hot, what was that back in the '60s? Flywheels may make sense for some fixed installations to smooth demand but all you need to see is what happens after a simple flywheel lets lose on a drag race car, to imagine the potential for bad consequences after being scaled up many times.
I always though flywheel storage made most sense for subway trains, since they're mostly stopping and starting in a straight line. I think they developed some counter rotating wheels to mitigate gyroscopic forces but there still could be nasty bearing loads and other issues to deal with.
Flywheels, IMO make more sense as a low pass filter to smooth energy supply/demand but is not without it's own problems when scaled up to reasonable levels.
We have become blasé about the huge potential energy in a typical car gas tank. Don't underestimate the danger in a spinning flywheel, a tank of hydrogen, or a bank of batteries holding anywhere near that much energy.
JR
https://www.resotune.com/
"A bus in a console is spelled with one 's', but you can buss your girlfriend while riding in a bus."
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| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #321890 is a reply to message #321870 ] |
Sun, 11 May 2008 22:05 |
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"Virgin did a test flight with bio-fuel. So again, we'll survive with minor economic adjustments"
And presumably once this becomes a mature and successful technology we'll learn how to eat it?
I can say with some certainty that this was an activity quite unknown in Iowa!
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| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #321897 is a reply to message #321731 ] |
Sun, 11 May 2008 22:57 |
Victor Kouli
Messages: 60
Registered: May 2004
Location: Toronto, Canada |
Should Get Out More |
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| Charlie Zureki wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 16:25 |
If you really want to save money on gasoline... always purchase your gas in the morning hours 4-6am. Gasoline pumps use volumetric measurements, not by weight. When the Gas temperature is the coolest it is more dense.
Cheers,
Hammer
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 Well... It will not work, at list in Canada. All of the majors are on ATC: http://tinyurl.com/6laja6 throughout delivery and retail. Though the in ground storage tank temperature at your local gas station can go up/down from +15C to -20C depending on a season, your not likely to get more than you pay for.
Victor
[Updated on: Fri, 16 May 2008 08:38]
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| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #321900 is a reply to message #321898 ] |
Sun, 11 May 2008 23:12 |
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Didn't realise you were a Krishna devotee John
Any fuel supply that actively competes with the food supply will lead to strife on a scale as yet unseen (but maybe Tim Duffin's "those people" solution will reduce the population sufficiently to give us a little extra time?
I can say with some certainty that this was an activity quite unknown in Iowa!
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| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #321906 is a reply to message #321902 ] |
Sun, 11 May 2008 23:45 |
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I'm not saying food will run out, but what happens when first world demand exceeds third world budgets!
Prices are increasing sharply in every region of the world for some of the most basic foodstuffs traded on international commodity markets. The price of wheat has doubled in less than a year, while other staples such as corn, maize and soy are trading at well above their 1990s levels. Rice, which is the staple food for about 3 billion people worldwide, has tripled in cost in the last 18 months. In some countries, prices for milk and meat have more than doubled.
Source: CRS
I can say with some certainty that this was an activity quite unknown in Iowa!
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| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #321954 is a reply to message #321902 ] |
Mon, 12 May 2008 09:10 |
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Whilst the hand may be invisible it is also inequitable, we drive they starve is the logical destination.
I can say with some certainty that this was an activity quite unknown in Iowa!
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| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #321956 is a reply to message #321906 ] |
Mon, 12 May 2008 09:15 |
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John Roberts {JR}
Messages: 7629
Registered: April 2004
Location: MS |
Has No Life |
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| Ian Hunt wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 23:45 |
I'm not saying food will run out, but what happens when first world demand exceeds third world budgets!
Prices are increasing sharply in every region of the world for some of the most basic foodstuffs traded on international commodity markets. The price of wheat has doubled in less than a year, while other staples such as corn, maize and soy are trading at well above their 1990s levels. Rice, which is the staple food for about 3 billion people worldwide, has tripled in cost in the last 18 months. In some countries, prices for milk and meat have more than doubled.
Source: CRS
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It appears there was a rice bubble/scare due to one or more failed crops, riding on top of this general upward pressure on food prices. There was even some discussion by the Philippines, I think, of forming a "rice cartel". They returned to their senses after seeing the transitory nature of this particular shortage event.
I am a severe critic of diverting food crops to energy use but the defenders of those programs argue that they are not totally responsible for the huge shift upward in grain prices and I am inclined to believe them (in part). It looks like a demographic shift in food demand to further up the food chain (eating meat instead of grains) that is rippling thought the developing world. It takes much more grain to make a pound of meat.
I do consider it hard to justify a $40B agricultural support in the new farm bill, with so much demand but at least $1B of that is to promote biofuel from non food grains.
IMO 1st world farm price supports hurts farming in the poor nations. They have demand and dirt. There are water infrastructure projects already under way in some needy areas.
I don't mean to trivialize this, world hunger needs plenty of attention but it isn't totally ignored right now. I advocate getting their agriculture working rather than sending them food. Teach a man to fish and all that... What they desperately need is a free market to sell their excess crop into, when they have a good year.
JR
https://www.resotune.com/
"A bus in a console is spelled with one 's', but you can buss your girlfriend while riding in a bus."
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| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #321991 is a reply to message #321874 ] |
Mon, 12 May 2008 11:26 |
Patrick Tracy
Messages: 1512
Registered: February 2006
Location: Boulder, CO |
Has No Life |
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Bitterly's flywheels are Kevlar fiber rather than steel. They disintegrate diffusing their energy widely (like one of those gag golf balls) rather than break into chunks that carry large portions of the momentum. In their testing Bitterly's team were unable to get the Kevlar discs to breach their containers in the rare cases that they could get them to fail. Multiple small discs are used rather than one big one. They are encased in pairs to mostly offset precession effects.
The idea of using Kevlar is that even though it is lighter than steel it has a higher strength to weight ratio allowing it to store more energy by safely going to higher RPMs.
You should look into the specifics of the technology developed more recently than the sixties. Even if it's not ultimately practical it's interesting in it's own right.
http://home.earthlink.net/~patrickgtracy
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| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #321994 is a reply to message #321731 ] |
Mon, 12 May 2008 11:33 |
Chris Hindle
Messages: 634
Registered: April 2004
Location: Montreal, Canada |
Has No Life |
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| Charlie Zureki wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 16:25 |
Patrick,
If you really want to save money on gasoline... always purchase your gas in the morning hours 4-6am. Gasoline pumps use volumetric measurements, not by weight. When the Gas temperature is the coolest it is more dense.
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I don't know about you, but up where I am, the tanks are buried (below the frost line), so there is a small difference summer to winter, but no difference day to night.
Yes, in a previus life I worked at a gas station. I have touched the "holy water" at various times during the seasons... 
"Ya, whatever. Just stick a '57 on it, and get off the stage"
Chris.
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| Re: OK off Topic but this is useful to us all and i will share [message #322065 is a reply to message #321705 ] |
Mon, 12 May 2008 15:55 |
Tim Duffin
Messages: 459
Registered: September 2004 |
Has No Life |
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| Mac Kerr wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 12:14 |
| Steven Jackson wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 14:54 |
Electrolyzing the water will use more energy than combusting the H2 and O2. So unless you had an alternator that only worked on downhills, you would be wasting fuel straight away.
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I admit I know little about modern car engines, but after the battery recharges, isn't there excess electricity available from the alternator? It keeps on spinning whenever the engine is running. If that's the electricity that's used for the electrolyzing, how are wasting fuel? Of course you are wasting fuel by hauling around the extra weight of the water and associated gear. I don't buy that this will have a net gain.
Mac
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No extra power from the alternator. By definition, and "alternator" alternates between charging and freewheeling with no load. This is controlled by the IC regulator inside the case-- when there is no calculated load, it de-energizes the field and the alternator is simply a spinning mass until its needed again.
T
www.spl-sound.com
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