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| Re: From the Beginning [message #319994 is a reply to message #319975 ] |
Tue, 06 May 2008 08:36   |
 Dick Rees
Messages: 1542
Registered: September 2007
Location: St Paul, MN |
Has No Life |
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| Steve Tremayne wrote on Tue, 06 May 2008 07:50 |
Okay, I understand the worth of getting a consultant that knows what he/she is doing, however I would like some thoughts on power (amperage) for the size and configuration space that we have based on the info I have provided.
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There are so many variables that would contribute to a meaningful answer to this question: music type, speaker positioning/pattern, room sound treatment, etc. The answer....it depends.
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Would there be enough power coming from a pair of powered JBL EON15 G2s to handle this space or do we need to move up to something like the JBL PRX525 set with a pair half way down the space, or is it best to go with passive and get power amps for the mains and monitors?
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Same answer as above.
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For on stage, are Nady FWA-12s at 125W RMS adequate for the floor monitors?
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No.
With respect to your desire to get a base line I'd suggest that you may already have some of this information from what has been/is being used by the bands. The other side of the coin would be to check out the other work done by whoever you are considering as your professional advisor/consultant.
[Updated on: Tue, 06 May 2008 08:38]
Neo-Luddite, Rocket Surgeon
"The bum sat on the boxcar, his feet were on the ground"......Longfellow
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| Re: From the Beginning [message #320000 is a reply to message #319570 ] |
Tue, 06 May 2008 08:41 |
Stephen Payne
Messages: 148
Registered: December 2007
Location: Chestertown MD |
Has No Life |
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I would like to have a baseline feel for what a consultant may be telling me!
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You shouldn't have any preconceived ideas. If you want to "help" your consultant then tell them your goals and if at all possible go with your consultant to a place where you like the sound.
In fact you might try talking to the owners or sound guys at other places. You might be surprised how much info you can get for free.
You should still get some pro help though.
Yours is a small room. If you want a rockin joint then you still wont need much PA. Go for sound quality not power. If you want a more laid back sound then your problem is going to be getting the band to turn down (and then stay turned down).
Your job is to give serious thought to what you want and then convey that to your consultant. Not an easy job.
I agree with Tony that if your place becomes an "it" place then it really doesn't matter much what you have there. I can't name names but I've seen it myself.
Steve
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| Re: From the Beginning [message #320006 is a reply to message #319975 ] |
Tue, 06 May 2008 08:51 |
Mike Kivett
Messages: 161
Registered: April 2004
Location: Jefferson City, MO |
Has No Life |
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Just to chime in with an additional advantage to having a house system:
At the end of the night, you can lock up the doors a lot faster if the band doesn't need an additional 45 minutes to an hour to tear down and load out their PA. 
While there are many ways to go, you might also want to determine if you want the system to attempt to cover the entire room, or only a smaller defined area near to the stage. Say, the dance floor and some of the surrounding tables.
One club I work in is very long (probably 100'), and likes to have a system in that slams the first 30' or so from the stage, while allowing the pool players (it's a bar/billiard parlor/grill/darts type of club) and people eating in the rear half to still be able to talk to each other.
Is the sound perfect in the back? No, but it's balanced and more importantly, not as loud.
You may want something similar, in which case the options are numerous.
[Updated on: Tue, 06 May 2008 08:53]
- Mike Kivett
www.myspace.com/kivettaudio
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| Re: From the Beginning.. Wait.. [message #320008 is a reply to message #319975 ] |
Tue, 06 May 2008 08:55 |
Mike {AB} Butler
Messages: 1686
Registered: April 2004
Location: Lynchburg, VA |
Has No Life |
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To add to what mike said..
Steve,
Too many folks think it's about the gear. In your case, if you're trying to keep volume DOWN, there may be a number of things you will have to do.
First, you will have to figure out how to get the stage volume down.. or a low volume PA will be an impossibility! A bunch of Nady wedges will make things far worse. One possibility is to take away all monitors and present artists with In Ear Monitoring (IEM's) systems. Solves the wedge volume problem, but now you will have to create better mixes than ever before to make your artists happy! Now, let's just say for argument's sake, that this will fly. Next, you now have to deal with live instruments.. including amps, drums, and possibly horns and percussion. A tambourine of moderate size will create enough racket to make it hard to keep the levels down. A Drum kit with an energetic drummer with 2B's will drown everything else out.. to a point where turning up to insane levels becomes reality.. just to keep up. and don't forget the guitar amp that "MUST" be cranked up to get the artist's proper "tone". ANY of these will cause you to lose the lower sound levels battle! SO, that means you now have another step - to accoustically minimize the instruments on stage.. with baffles, absorption panels, and acrylic/plexi shields.. which, BTW, many artists don't like that, either!
Steve, please note here I have NOT said a word in the way of gear recommendations. I'm just trying to get you to see the reality of the Problems you will face! Any good consultant will do the same.. as well as warn you when a solution is not as simple or straightforward and low cost as you think it "should" be.
One thing: you aren't the owner. What does the owner want, here?
How far are they willing to go? Your small budget being the indicator, it looks to me as if you can get some stuff that will make noise in that space.. but would be a far cry from solving the real problems I mention above.
I know the problems you are facing. IF level kept down is your goal, you will have a complicated solution. I have spent years with different groups trying to help get their levsls onstage under control.. and it really took everything from e-drums to absorption panels to plexi-shields to walking the stage with an SPL meter in hand to catch violators during soundcheck. It took IEM's, Headsets, re-aiming cabinets, and many, many, "turn it downs!"
My advice: start to get your head around the GOAL, start to see the PROBLEMS, THEN decide on solutions, which, will ultimately determine the choice of GEAR.
Regards,
Mike Butler
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| Re: From the Beginning [message #320011 is a reply to message #319975 ] |
Tue, 06 May 2008 08:56 |
Brad Weber
Messages: 1158
Registered: December 2005
Location: Marietta, GA |
Has No Life |
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| Steve Tremayne wrote on Tue, 06 May 2008 08:50 |
Okay, I understand the worth of getting a consultant that knows what he/she is doing, however I would like some thoughts on power (amperage) for the size and configuration space that we have based on the info I have provided.
Would there be enough power coming from a pair of powered JBL EON15 G2s to handle this space or do we need to move up to something like the JBL PRX525 set with a pair half way down the space, or is it best to go with passive and get power amps for the mains and monitors? For on stage, are Nady FWA-12s at 125W RMS adequate for the floor monitors?
I would like to have a baseline feel for what a consultant may be telling me!
The intention is to mic all musician amplification (or to use a line out if applicable) as well as the drum kit with a 4-mic package using a BETA 52 on the kick. I am not asking for a life or death commitment, just a few practical scenarios before I head into this thing.
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There are many other questions that have to be answered before one can really answer your questions. It is basically a matter of defining your expectations and the desired results before being able to assess what specific equipment might support that goal. You have also posed some rather confusing questions, for example when you ask about power and amperage that would usually be referencing AC power but you seem to be associating that with the speakers. And has been stated so many times in these forums, it is the speaker output rather than power that relates to the results and you can't address the power until many other things have been decided. Also, there is a lot more to speaker selection than just output, especially for installed systems.
Let's go back to the start. What are you actually trying to do right now; are you looking to get an idea of a budget or to get an idea of the system concept or an equipment list or what? If you proceed with a new system, how do you plan on doing that; are you going to a dealer/contractor to purchase the equipment and have them install the system or are you going to buy the equipment at a local music store (or online) and install it yourself or what?
Can you at least broadly describe what bands have used there in the past and what worked well or what you'd like to improve? Knowing things such as that the bands just had a pair of speakers on sticks and that worked acceptably or that you felt you'd like to have more even coverage of the entire room would help a lot.
Brad Weber
muse Audio Video
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| Re: From the Beginning.. Wait.. [message #320649 is a reply to message #320008 ] |
Wed, 07 May 2008 18:35 |
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bo putnam
Messages: 425
Registered: August 2004
Location: Roadkill, BayArea |
Has No Life |
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| Mike {AB} Butler wrote on Tue, 06 May 2008 06:55 |
I'm just trying to get you to see the reality of the Problems you will face! Any good consultant will do the same.. as well as warn you when a solution is not as simple or straightforward and low cost as you think it "should" be.
...
One thing: you aren't the owner. What does the owner want, here?
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And one other: Judging from the floor plot, are you going to hang this system? If so, you really need someone qualified to do that. There may be City Engineers that get involved - this stuff has to be done right - first for safety reasons, and second for best sound projection/coverage. If you "design" the system yourself with your buddy, you might have a hard time finding someone willing to do the hang - they usually want/need to be involved all the way along.
Also, are you going to mix from stage, or run a snake to a FOH position? How are you going to run the snake - along the wall, ceiling or under the floor? A quality multi-channel snake can that length can easily hit $1,000 with copper prices where they are. Your budget looks tight to me...
Do you have AC power with common ground and isolated from blenders and neon lights that you can share only between stage and FOH? What ampere load can you handle on that circuit?
Lots of stuff to get right.
bo
SOUNDsupport
oops - wrong door...
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| Re: From the Beginning [message #320659 is a reply to message #319570 ] |
Wed, 07 May 2008 19:02 |
Tom faderjockey Brandis
Messages: 496
Registered: August 2004
Location: Baltimore, Maryland |
Has No Life |
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Steve, I just recently installed my PA in a club probably just a little more square footage(just the club side) than your's. I have upwards around 75k (staging, lights, PA) invested in equipment alone not to mention installation cost such as electrical, rigging, tuning, etc. By no means is this equipment considered top of the line. It isn't garbage, but it would not pass on any riders for bigger acts that may or may not come through your venue.
I worked up a three year contract with the owners to provide all aspects of production for all bands coming through. Maybe your best bet is to find a local provider, someone who has been at your club and you and your staff notice a considerable difference in sound and quality production as compared to what others that come through provide. See if they're interested. You simply work out a pay schedule with them and they take care of everything. No headaches.
I for one found this situation to be beneficial to both the club and myself. Pic from stage of the venue attached.
Tom in Baltimore 
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| Re: From the Beginning.. Wait.. [message #320775 is a reply to message #320761 ] |
Thu, 08 May 2008 04:28 |
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Richard Rajchel
Messages: 158
Registered: August 2006
Location: Wisconsin, USA |
Has No Life |
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While 7k might be a bit optimistic for an acceptable sound system, quit ripping on them like some elitist snob. Not everyone needs a Digi board and Nexo Line arrays with digital snakes.
Remember as well that you can find perfectly acceptable gear on the used market. Here on PSWs own Marketplace forum and E-Bay. Even Banjo Center has a used gear section on it's site. Don't jump into the low end stuff, but you don't have to listen to these guys and spend 70k on a system for a bar that size either.
You could easily do it for around $15k or so. Without going bottom end on stuff. 7k even for a bar system is really pushing the limits and I don't think you'd be happy with the results, unless you are a used gear freak and can find some really great deals on stuff.
Even if you go Yamaha club series speakers and Behringer amps you'd probably still be talking about a 12k system.
Then you'll need lights. You don't have to get fancy, but even 12 par 56s with all mounting and a cheap light board will run you close to another 2k.
A realistic budget would be at least 15k, and 20k would get you closer to where you probably want to be. I'm sure someone could spend 70k plus of someone else's money in a place like that, but it's completely unnecessary and not very cost effective.
Look at it like this. If you spent 20k and the system went for 5 years it'd only cost the bar about $75 a week. Now maintainance and getting someone competent to run it are different matters altogether.
One last note on all this 70k system vs 15k system stuff. 99% of the people listening to the music could really give a crap what the equipment is or even sounds like as long as the chicks are dancing and the beer is flowing. I've had to get acceptable sound out of a 24 channel behringer board and low end EAW speakers in a pizza joint with 16 par 36s rigged up to an actual strip of wall switches(one switch for each bank of colors).
It's a good feeling knowing that you have great equipment, and can make it sound great. There are certainly a few variables in there besides all this wizbang equipment people like....and that's the person running the system. I've heard half a million dollar line array systems with Midas Legend boards sound like crap, and speakers on sticks run with a Mackie mixer sound pretty damn good. If all you can afford is a Mackie 24 channel VLZ and Behringer amps and no compressors...someone should still be able to get decent music out of them as long as the musicians are competent.
[Updated on: Thu, 08 May 2008 04:35]
-Richard Rajchel
http://www.coolwatersband.com
CD Duplication by Vector CDs
SEO Tips Simplified
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| Re: From the Beginning.. Wait.. [message #320940 is a reply to message #320775 ] |
Thu, 08 May 2008 14:36 |
Ned Ward
Messages: 39
Registered: April 2008 |
Should Get Out More |
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couple of things:
If you only have $7K to spend on the system, then you only have $7K to spend on the system. I'd suggest breaking it down into several bundles:
- consultant - several people have said it's worth it to sit down with a consultant to discuss your goals, your budget, and how you can start. The consultant ideally should be able to talk to you about power needs/distribution, acoustic treatment, and sound reinforcement. It won't be cheap, but will be a valuable part of getting advice on how to reach your goal. Part of these goals should also be how much sound do you want? Do you want the entire club filled with sound, or only 20' from the stage so if people want to hear themselves they have a place to move to?
- power and wiring - this is something not to scrimp on, and having proper electrical service set up now to handle bigger stuff later would be great. With a 1' stage, you could have an electrician run conduit and flush mount drop boxes into the floor, as well as other wiring you will have constantly. This will help to reduce setup, teardown, and minimize wear to cables - especially if the space is needed for dining when not needed. I would advise to wire to what you would ultimately grow into, so that as your SR and lighting grows, your electrical and wiring is already there.
- sound system - this is where people are giving suggestions. Used gear is great to start out with, and should stretch your budget further without having to compromise on new low-quality brands. I've found that when I've bought and sold my dbx entry level gear, it's held its price far better than when I've bought the lower priced stuff (Nady, ART, Behringer) so I'd wait until you can afford some of the better stuff, even used. Powered speakers like the EONs are inexpensive, but don't leave you a lot of room to expand, whereas with an amp/speaker, you can upgrade one part at a time as funds allow. It will also depend on what you're putting through the PA. If most of the time it's just vocals and acoustic guitar and the band's drums and backline is enough, that may be OK until you need to move to fully mic'ing everything and adding tops and subs.
*lights - based on your current budget, this may be where you scrimp and add on later, assuming you've pre-run the right wire that you need to power and control the things.
Have fun, listen to the great advice on the boards, and you can have a good system that people will enjoy at your club with the money you have and then you can upgrade later if you want to something like the $15K system. But a lot of the upfront work (consultant, power, wiring) will save you headaches and additional costs down the road.
Low End Rig - Works for us (in case it wasn't clear from my posts I'm a newbie)
Mackie 1642VLZ, Lexicon MPX200, SPX90, dbx 1046
Mains: Driverack PA, QSC RMX 1850HD, JBL JRX115x2
Monitors: Behringer Feedback Destroyer, Mackie SRM450x2
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| Re: From the Beginning.. Wait.. [message #321016 is a reply to message #320950 ] |
Thu, 08 May 2008 20:03 |
Mark Hobbs
Messages: 389
Registered: October 2006 |
Has No Life |
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Look at it this way - not hiring a consultant means tht you have to go through the learning process of engineering a sound system, setting it up and making it sound good. That knowledge will stay with you. You will without a doubt make a mistake or two along the way, but making mistakes is what learning is about. Do the research and the mistakes hopefully wont be costly ones.
FYI my rig consists of one pair of tops, one pair of subs, one pair of monitors, 3 amps, all the normal signal processing, some mics, all the cabling, rack cases, 1 mixer, DI boxes plus a few other things and I have spent about 13K. Most of my gear is middle-of-the-road in terms of quality and some of it could be considered top-of-the-line.
[Updated on: Thu, 08 May 2008 20:08]
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| Re: From the Beginning.. Wait.. [message #321134 is a reply to message #321112 ] |
Fri, 09 May 2008 07:28 |
Mark Walter
Messages: 116
Registered: June 2007
Location: Central PA |
Has No Life |
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Regarding your stage. Has it been built yet? If not, I'd check with your local building department. If it's a new stage, you may need handicap access to the stage.
_________________________________________________
Mark Walter
L.H. Productions, York Pa.
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