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Forum Home » Sound Reinforcement » LAB Lounge » From the Beginning
| From the Beginning [message #319570] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 07:39  |
 Steve Tremayne
Messages: 5
Registered: May 2008 |
Newbie |
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Hello. I have a restaurant that is approx 4500 sq ft and we have started having live music. Bands range from two acoustic dudes on stools to full Stevie Ray Vaughan and Beatles tribute bands. We have decided to install an in-house sound reinforcement system help attract top quality bands and musicians. The restaurant area to consider is approx 45 ft wide by 80 feet long, with the bands setting up on the right side at one end in an alcove that is approx 20 wide by 25 deep. There are no inside walls to contend with other than the alcove.
Too many questions but:
1. Do we use active or passive speakers?
2. If active, what amperage requirement should we be looking at, how many speakers in each cabinet, with a HF Horn?
3. If passive, what amp output should we be considering? One for house speakers and one for monitors?
I know it’s not this simple, however I need a starting point.
Thanks,
Steve
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| Re: From the Beginning [message #319572 is a reply to message #319570 ] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 08:08  |
Dick Rees
Messages: 1924
Registered: September 2007
Location: St Paul, MN |
Has No Life |
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Hello...
This is the 3rd or 4th time this ??? has been asked in the last couple of months. The first thing needed (usually) is an actual plot of the space attached. The second is that this is more properly addressed in the Install/contracting section. Be ready for frank answers. The more specific information you provide and your willingness to respond to requests for info, the quicker and easeer the process.
Good luck.
Neo-Luddite, Rocket Surgeon
He who laughs lasts best!!!
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| Re: From the Beginning [message #319593 is a reply to message #319570 ] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 09:16 |
Mike {AB} Butler
Messages: 1815
Registered: April 2004
Location: Lynchburg, VA |
Has No Life |
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| Steve Tremayne wrote on Mon, 05 May 2008 08:39 |
Hello. I have a restaurant that is approx 4500 sq ft and we have started having live music. Bands range from two acoustic dudes on stools to full Stevie Ray Vaughan and Beatles tribute bands. We have decided to install an in-house sound reinforcement system help attract top quality bands and musicians. The restaurant area to consider is approx 45 ft wide by 80 feet long, with the bands setting up on the right side at one end in an alcove that is approx 20 wide by 25 deep. There are no inside walls to contend with other than the alcove.
Too many questions but:
1. Do we use active or passive speakers?
2. If active, what amperage requirement should we be looking at, how many speakers in each cabinet, with a HF Horn?
3. If passive, what amp output should we be considering? One for house speakers and one for monitors?
I know it’s not this simple, however I need a starting point.
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Another viewpoint; so, some more questions:
- First, I'm assuming the area you are covering will have people seated at tables eating, correct? Is this an adults only place, or will you be serving kids as well?
- Next, what have you been doing up to now? Using the band's system, or renting? How did you like the result? How did your customers like it? Resulted in more, or less business? Same?
- What kind of budget are you planning on (not saying here what it will take, this is more a question of what you think the dollar amount of the system "should be at")?
- Last, it sure looks like you want bands to play at a level that will keep customers seated, eating, and happy? How are you prepared to deal with stage volumes, monitors, and other backline needs to keep the front tables to the stage happy - and not running out when the drummer takes out his 2B's?
In short, I think you may need a lot less system than a concert venue.. but a whole lot more in terms of backline accoustic isolation, monitoring, and mixing AT STAGE to keep the band happy.. without destroying the audience.
Anyway, tell us a bit more about what you did try.. and how it worked.. for starters.
Regards,
Mike Butler
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| Re: From the Beginning [message #319684 is a reply to message #319570 ] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 14:26 |
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Andy Peters
Messages: 6141
Registered: April 2004
Location: Tucson, AZ |
Has No Life
Contrarian |
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| Steve Tremayne wrote on Mon, 05 May 2008 05:39 |
Hello. I have a restaurant that is approx 4500 sq ft and we have started having live music. Bands range from two acoustic dudes on stools to full Stevie Ray Vaughan and Beatles tribute bands. We have decided to install an in-house sound reinforcement system help attract top quality bands and musicians. The restaurant area to consider is approx 45 ft wide by 80 feet long, with the bands setting up on the right side at one end in an alcove that is approx 20 wide by 25 deep. There are no inside walls to contend with other than the alcove.
Too many questions but:
1. Do we use active or passive speakers?
2. If active, what amperage requirement should we be looking at, how many speakers in each cabinet, with a HF Horn?
3. If passive, what amp output should we be considering? One for house speakers and one for monitors?
I know it’s not this simple, however I need a starting point.
|
Seriously:
Your best bet is to contact a local sound company who can survey the room and spec out a system. Based on your desire to host full bands, you will need to put up some serious (as in five figures to the left of the decimal point) coin. It might work to your advantage to lease the system. Some acoustic treatments to your room may be necessary.
You are a restaurant manager, and not a production manager, so you'll need to have someone on your staff to handle that stuff. The sound company may also recommend a person for that position. The production manager (fancy title for "house sound guy") will be the person who actually runs the system and deals with the bands, etc.
If your intent is to attract "top quality" bands, then you'll need to provide a top-quality rig.
-a
"I never knew words could be so confusing," Milo said to Tock as he bent down to scratch the dog's ear.
"Only when you use a lot to say a little," answered Tock.
"On the Internet, nobody can hear you mix a band."
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| Re: From the Beginning [message #319690 is a reply to message #319593 ] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 14:42 |
Steve Tremayne
Messages: 5
Registered: May 2008 |
Newbie |
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Hello to everyone!
Basic physical dimensions are attached. Detail is as follows:
1. Floor is concrete
2. 15’ wood ceiling with 1x12 rafters on 24” center vertically across
3. Interior walls are mostly brick (1911 historic building)
4. A large amount of Glass on the west side with the front door
There is a 4.5’ high by 29' long wall going down the center of the open area.
Budget, around 5-6 (maybe 7k). No to a consultant as that is not in the budget.
We (I) will probably manage the system unless the band brings in their own sound person.
We are a restaurant first, a bar second. Music starts at 9PM. By that time, most of our serious only-diners and their kids have made there exit and the drinkers/dancers have started to file in.
Most bands have been bringing in their own system with the exception of a couple. They have controlled the mix from the stage and that doesn’t seem to work real well. I don’t want to upset anyone, however I believe a more controlled environment will be best. We (the house) would like to control volumes and mix. In my opinion, the majority of the bands have been too loud. Some to the point of distortion (especially in the front).
To Mike Butler, your last paragraph seems accurate however with my limited knowledge, not sure what is meant by backline in the whole scheme!
Thanks to everyone for your feedback. Steve
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| Re: From the Beginning [message #319706 is a reply to message #319696 ] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 15:19 |
Dick Rees
Messages: 1924
Registered: September 2007
Location: St Paul, MN |
Has No Life |
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Steve...
Thanks for the floor plan.
Recessed performing areas have their own unique problems/limitations, to say the least. When you build the floor you're going to want to brace it extremely solidly or you'll have even more problems. Others will have more specific information on this issue. Mere carpeting does not solve all the problems.
You get what you pay for. Limited budgets yield limited results. The space/location presents some significant problems vis a vis speaker placement/coverage.
This will be a process over a period of time. Try to avoid false economy of cheaping out in the beginning and finding out that your interested volunteers ideas don't work and result in you spending more in the end to replace inadequate gear on which you have committed your "hard-earned". To this end a knowledgeable consultant will save you at least the cost of his/her hire. Without a pro at this stage I'm betting you'll either spend more than necessary to achieve the desired result or spend your budget getting less than satisfactory results.
Poor sound will not attract repeat business.
Neo-Luddite, Rocket Surgeon
He who laughs lasts best!!!
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| Re: From the Beginning [message #319708 is a reply to message #319690 ] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 15:24 |
Mike {AB} Butler
Messages: 1815
Registered: April 2004
Location: Lynchburg, VA |
Has No Life |
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| Steve Tremayne wrote on Mon, 05 May 2008 15:42 |
Budget, around 5-6 (maybe 7k). No to a consultant as that is not in the budget.
We (I) will probably manage the system unless the band brings in their own sound person.
Most bands have been bringing in their own system with the exception of a couple. They have controlled the mix from the stage and that doesn’t seem to work real well. I don’t want to upset anyone, however I believe a more controlled environment will be best. We (the house) would like to control volumes and mix. In my opinion, the majority of the bands have been too loud. Some to the point of distortion (especially in the front).
To Mike Butler, your last paragraph seems accurate however with my limited knowledge, not sure what is meant by backline in the whole scheme!
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Steve,
First off, avoiding consultant.. bad idea. Just with what you've posted, you have some things that need a trained eye and ear with commensurate skillset to sort out. I'm not trying to bust you here.. just saying you might be surprised what 2 hours at say, $50 an hour would SAVE you.. in terms of headaches, issues, and unforeseen items. Even if all you did was ask for a few hours of their advice.. and set it all up based on their instructions.. and have about an hour of them for return time to ensure all is properly set up, dialed in, and that no laws or rules are being violated.
Next, bands are VERY hard to control sometimes. Some can be really unruly about it. They will pitch the "artistic expression" and "can't hear" the first time you try to turn them down. Some guys are truly deaf enough to where they NEED the extra level your room can't handle. If you can't figure out how to deal with this issue.. you might have trouble "controlling" the system like you think you will be able to!
Backline is the musician's instruments. Having plexiglass shields , as well as accoustic damping (fireproof) around the drums, guitar, keys, and bass amps may be the only salvation for your clientele - the audience.
Get thee to a consultant.. now. Save yourself the money.. or worse yet, having to buy twice..
Mike Butler
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| Re: From the Beginning [message #319730 is a reply to message #319696 ] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 16:09 |
Brad Weber
Messages: 1315
Registered: December 2005
Location: Marietta, GA |
Has No Life |
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Steve,
It may come down to a simple question, are you basically wanting to have a system like what the bands brought in on their own but that the house provides or are you wanting a system that is tailored specifically to your facility?
If it is the latter, then I don't think you're going to get an accurate idea of what it will really take without getting somebody to physically look at the situation. There are many potential issues like where the mix position might go, what power is available, how you can route cabling, where you can mount speakers, possible limitations on speaker sizes, whether aesthetics are a factor and so on that could affect any choices or decisions.
At the same time, they could discuss functional issues with you such as how many inputs might be required, whether monitors are needed, whether you want even coverage everywhere or instead want to create some louder and quieter areas, etc.
Brad Weber
muse Audio Video
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| Re: From the Beginning [message #319738 is a reply to message #319690 ] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 16:37 |
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Tony "T" Tissot
Messages: 2381
Registered: June 2006
Location: Northern California |
Has No Life |
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| Steve Tremayne wrote on Mon, 05 May 2008 12:42 |
"help attract top quality bands and musicians."
Most bands have been bringing in their own system with the exception of a couple. They have controlled the mix from the stage and that doesn’t seem to work real well. I don’t want to upset anyone, however I believe a more controlled environment will be best. We (the house) would like to control volumes and mix. In my opinion, the majority of the bands have been too loud. Some to the point of distortion (especially in the front).
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Most bands will play no matter if you have a system - or not, or a "good" system - or not.
You are really doing this for you and your patrons. You'll get consistent, decent sound. You'll get a good reputation, more patrons, and a better draw if you take lights and sound seriously.
I can't ever recall weighing if we would do one gig versus the next because of the sound system. It helps, it's nice, we love it. But it's not much of a factor on accepting gigs. There is one price "with" and one "without."
We've turned down gigs when we could not reach a deal - but not for sound system alone.
Find someone who has done this before (and go listen to one of their deployments first) - you'll be happier.
ProSoundWeb - Home of 50,000 audio professionals - and two or three curmudgeonly SOBs.
http://www.youtube.com/loshightops
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