Forum Home » Sound Reinforcement » Installed Sound/Contracting » Questions about building an audio system for a bar/restaurant
| Questions about building an audio system for a bar/restaurant [message #316819] |
Sat, 26 April 2008 20:21  |
 Robert Taylor
Messages: 8
Registered: April 2008
Location: Milwaukee |
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I am going to be opening a bar/restaurant soon. Right now I am in the beginning of the renovation of the existing building. I want to design and install the audio system myself, I'd like to spend between $2000-$4000 on the system. I have quite a bit of experience and knowledge of home and car audio but I have limited knowledge of commercial setups. I'm sure that with the right advice I can design and install a nice system. Here are some details: The total space is about 1,000 sq feet with about 12' ceilings. Volume-wise, it will be more of a restaurant during the day, so the volume level will be fairly low. At night, I want to be able to turn it up, but this isn't a dance club or something that needs extremely loud sound with earth-shaking bass. I'll need to be able to handle multiple sources (Cd player, Ipod/computer, TV/Cable audio and Satellite radio). I would also like the speakers to be as unobtrusive as possible, we are putting a lot of work into the look and design of the place and I don't want big speakers all over the place. I'd like to be able to use bookshelf-size speakers mounted higher up and one or more hidden subwoofers (preferably on the floor somewhere) to supply the sound.I figure that 4 pairs of speakers (8 speakers) would fill the space well. If it's sensible, I'd like to have the bookshelf speakers on two zones, so I could have two separate volume controls for them. A lot of bars this size use home stereo receivers to power their systems. I'm not totally opposed to this, but I'm wondering about the durability of home equipment for this application, as it will be running 16+ hours a day, 7 days a week. Also, it seems like most of the 2 channel home receivers are either real cheap and lower power, or they are the big$$$ audiophile units. Most of the middle priced receivers are 5.1 or 7.1 surround units, I don't need the surround channels. I'm leaning towards using pro gear. Here is what I am thinking right now for a system: For a source selector, something like a Crown 14M or a Rolls RM70 to select the source and control the volume. Then for the power, use two amps to power the bookshelf speakers. I would hook up two pairs to each amp, assuming they are 8 ohms, I'd wire them parallel to get a 4 ohms at the amp. I'd think that an amp like the Crown XLS 202 would work, at 4 ohms it puts out 300 watts/channel. So, with 2 amps, I'd have up to 1200 watts going to the 8 bookshelf speakers. For the bass, I have two ideas, either use a third amp, maybe another Crown XLS 202 or a bigger one like a Crown XLS 402 which puts out 450 watts at 4 ohms and use one or two passive sub boxes, which I want to try to hide as well as I can. (Under the bar or in a corner or ???) My second bass idea is to use powered subs. Now I know that most decent home receivers have a subwoofer line out for a powered sub. How would I hook a powered sub up to a mixer/selector with its outputs? If it is easily done, I'd probably go with the powered subs. My friend recently bought a JBL 12" 300 watt powered sub that sounds great and can shake his whole house for about $300. Finally, the speakers. I've had good luck with JBL in the past. I am thinking of the "Control 25" which has a 5.25" woofer and tweeter. It is rated to handle 150 watts continuous power and sensitivity of 88db. To sum it all up, I am looking for a critique of my ideas for the audio system. Do you think I have enough power to play fairly loud at times? Does the setup make sense? I'm certainly open to any suggestions of other brands of equipment as well, I know that Crown and JBL are decent products, but I'm not stuck on them, either. Or, is this overkill and should I just go buy a decent home receiver? Any other comments are also appreciated. Thanks!
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| Re: Questions about building an audio system for a bar/restaurant [message #316827 is a reply to message #316819 ] |
Sat, 26 April 2008 21:13  |
Duane Massey
Messages: 1263
Registered: January 2006
Location: Houston, Tx |
Has No Life |
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Robert, DIY is not going to get a lot of support around here, as almost everyone that posts here do this for a living. That being said, here's my $ .02 worth.
Home receivers can work, but are undependable and typically won't survive continuous and/or hard usage. I wouldn't go there under any circumstances, as even the cheapest semi-pro gear will work better and longer. It is also somewhat uncommon to run a system in stereo, as the listeners will rarely be in a "sweet spot" to hear a balanced stereo image, not to mention that a mono system is much easier to control.
The room dimensions, furnishings, ceiling height, etc, will all influence how much sound you need, as well as the ambient noise level and type of music. For anything other than quiet dining room applications I'd look for something much more robust than the Control 25's. Control 28's, maybe, but only if you are really not looking for anything over moderate levels.
It would be helpful to know the dimensions of the room, and the construction as well, not just the sq ft.
I think your budget is adequate, and it's not exactly rocket science, BUT it's also not car or home audio either.
Duane Massey
Houston, Texas, USA
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| Re: Questions about building an audio system for a bar/restaurant [message #316856 is a reply to message #316819 ] |
Sat, 26 April 2008 23:04 |
Brad Weber
Messages: 1158
Registered: December 2005
Location: Marietta, GA |
Has No Life |
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| Quote: |
I want to design and install the audio system myself, I'd like to spend between $2000-$4000 on the system. I have quite a bit of experience and knowledge of home and car audio but I have limited knowledge of commercial setups. I'm sure that with the right advice I can design and install a nice system.
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Duane is right that the responses are pretty much going to be if you want to DIY with consumer products, then go ahead and DIY, but you are going to find the pros hesitant to support that approach.
I will say that you probably need to start by defining the space and what you are trying to do, that is where any system design should start. Things like whether the entire room gets the same audio, whether you want to be able to page over music, etc. I'd also review your sources, unless the CD and iPod are only for original material then it sounds like there may be rights issues to consider, you might want to think about commercial radio or a commercial music service.
On the technical side there are some things you'll want to consider that you probably don't look at for home or car audio, things like coverage. You may not need +/-3dB but you probably don't want to be blowing out some people for others to hear at all. For the same reasons, I would also probably forget about subs unless you have a number of them. And skip stereo for the reasons Duane listed. Also consider who may be running the system and whether it is simple enough for them to operate, if you're not there one night will others be able to figure it out? For example, is it practical to have the amps as the only way to control the volume independently for your two zones? On the installation side, consider how and where you mount the equipment, how you get power to devices(especially things like powered subs), etc.
Just looking at the equipment listed you're talking about somewhere around $1,000 for 8 Control 25's with mounts plus say $600 for 2 XLS202 amps, maybe $1,2000 for 4 of your $300 powered subs, $300 for a Crown 14M plus another maybe $500 in sources, etc. That's $3,600 without accounting anything for cabling, connectors, rack, shipping, tax, etc., so you're at the very high end if not over your budget without any EQ or other processing and with a system where you'd still need to figure how to incorporate the subs. And we have no idea if that would be a practical solution at all without knowing more about the application.
You might want to look at something like the Rane CP64S or similar products from Ashly, TOA, etc. These probably aren't names you know from home or car stereo and you may not be able to get some of them for online music suppliers, but that's the value someone with experience in this type of application would bring.
Brad Weber
muse Audio Video
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| Re: Questions about building an audio system for a bar/restaurant [message #316876 is a reply to message #316856 ] |
Sun, 27 April 2008 03:40 |
Robert Taylor
Messages: 8
Registered: April 2008
Location: Milwaukee |
Newbie |
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Thanks for the responses. I posted the question here to see if I could get some advice from some pros. I understand that some people don't want to cannibalize their business by advising the DIY crowd. My main line of work is general contracting and I participate in several forums where people ask for advice on DIY construction projects they are attempting. Usually I can help with some advice on proper construction techniques, although sometimes you have to tell them to hire a pro. Other times I am the one asking the question, like when I recently ran into a real oddball plumbing situation. I had originally planned on hiring someone to design and install the audio system, but I have several friends who have been in the bar/nightclub biz for quite a while and they all had mixed or low opinions of the service they have received from several of the local pro audio install firms. They seemed to think that instead of really designing an ideal system for the application, it seemed more like they were sold whatever the guy had taking up shelf space in his warehouse. It isn't that I don't want to pay a pro to do the work, as a contractor myself, I totally understand the concept of markups on equipment, labor charges and everything else that goes into making a profit, everyone's got to make some $$$ somehow! As I mentioned I am an audiophile, I have a McIntosh tube amp and pre amp setup with Linn speakers in my home and a MB Quart/Alpine setup in my car, I love great audio! If anyone has a suggestion for someone in the Milwaukee area who really does decent work, I'd be willing to give them a shot.
Now to answer the questions you had. The space is basically one large room, about 50'x20'. The ceiling is 12' in about 80% of the space, 11' in the other 20%. As far as the surfaces, I'd say it's pretty reflective, an old-style tin ceiling, hardwood floors and drywall walls. The entire system would be playing the same source at all times. As far as the 2 zones, the more I think about it, it really isn't necessary. I used to work in bars and restaurants myself, so I totally understand the idea of making the system simple to operate. As far as the music rights issue, from what my friends in the bar biz have said, you need to pay dues to whoever collects them for the music industry (Ascap?)then you can play what you wish. I would also be getting a satellite music service as well.
Thanks again for the advice, any other comments are much appreciated!
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| Re: Questions about building an audio system for a bar/restaurant [message #316890 is a reply to message #316819 ] |
Sun, 27 April 2008 07:24 |
Dick Rees
Messages: 1542
Registered: September 2007
Location: St Paul, MN |
Has No Life |
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Expanding on your idea of using bookshelf speakers:
There are some very nice near-field studio monitor speakers such as the Wharfdale 8.1 model which will give you an economical good sound. They are powered, so you can set the individual volumes suitably.
Also JBL makes some "business music" systems which are designed as a package. They used to be called "Sound Zone". Don't know if they make a current model.
From their vintage products list:
http://www.jblpro.com/businessmusic/SMS1/index.html
[Updated on: Sun, 27 April 2008 07:25]
Neo-Luddite, Rocket Surgeon
"The bum sat on the boxcar, his feet were on the ground"......Longfellow
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| Re: Questions about building an audio system for a bar/restaurant [message #317067 is a reply to message #316978 ] |
Sun, 27 April 2008 17:31 |
Don Boone
Messages: 405
Registered: April 2004
Location: SE USA |
Has No Life |
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If you go the powered speaker route have the electrician put all the AC outlets for all of the gear on the same phase fed from the same breaker panel.
Don
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| Re: Questions about building an audio system for a bar/restaurant [message #317108 is a reply to message #317068 ] |
Sun, 27 April 2008 19:31 |
Robert Taylor
Messages: 8
Registered: April 2008
Location: Milwaukee |
Newbie |
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I received a recommendation of a commercial audio pro from someone local who is impressed with their work. Sorry if my early ideas give you a headache, like I said I'm still learning the ins and outs of XLRs, balanced vs unbalanced and Speakon connectors and all of the other stuff related to pro gear. One thing that is the same in home, car and commercial audio is the quality of the sound that hits your ear. If I didn't know the difference between excellent sound and OK sound, I wouldn't have dropped $5,000 on my Mac tube amp, I'd have bought a $300 Sony receiver for my living room. In my main line of work (construction contracting) there are people and firms that do great work every time and people who do shoddy work and/or run off with your $$$. I'm sure it is the same in your line of work as well, I just want to find someone who will put some time into designing a system that is reliable and produces good sound, not just someone who will sell me what they want to get rid of. Thanks to everyone for the advice, I'm meeting with this guy on Tuesday, I'll check back to see what people think of what he recommends.
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| Re: Questions about building an audio system for a bar/restaurant [message #317198 is a reply to message #317165 ] |
Sun, 27 April 2008 23:50 |
Robert Taylor
Messages: 8
Registered: April 2008
Location: Milwaukee |
Newbie |
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I was only mentioning those terms because they are all things that aren't encountered much in home audio. If you really can't stand someone who would consider attempting a relatively simple DIY setup, even a seasoned audiophile (and someone with a bachelor's in electrical engineering I might add!) such as myself, then maybe you should skip this thread. I'm a contractor who is happy to give advice to someone looking at trying a DIY project myself, I contribute to several different web forums. If a project is too much for Johnny Homeowner to undertake, I'll respectfully tell them to hire out for it, yet I won't try to pick them apart or tell them they make me ill. I'll respect the opinion of a pro any day, but this isn't rocket science either. Thanks to everyone who posted helpful advice, I appreciate it. However, since I seem to be a real bother to some people here, I'll get my advice somewhere else.
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| Re: Questions about building an audio system for a bar/restaurant [message #317260 is a reply to message #317198 ] |
Mon, 28 April 2008 08:43 |
Brad Weber
Messages: 1158
Registered: December 2005
Location: Marietta, GA |
Has No Life |
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Robert,
Please consider that this is an installed audio forum and not a consumer audio or DIY forum. Not only is the intent probably not to become a DIY forum but people can't necessarily take the time to go into all the details that might be required for someone without at least some experience in installed sound.
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One thing that is the same in home, car and commercial audio is the quality of the sound that hits your ear.
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This is not really accurate as each application typically has quite different goals. Quality may indeed be a goal in all three but what you are trying to do and how it is achieved usually differ significantly. In dealing with concepts such as coverage rather than imaging or 70V distributed systems rather than stereo, completely different manufacturers who don't play in the other market and in many other ways, there are significant differences. Quality is subjective and varies with the application and trying to apply many of the usual characteristics of 'quality' for home or car audio are not applicable to commercial audio, which also has some 'quality' issues that may not really apply to home or car audio.
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I understand that some people don't want to cannibalize their business by advising the DIY crowd. My main line of work is general contracting and I participate in several forums where people ask for advice on DIY construction projects they are attempting. Usually I can help with some advice on proper construction techniques, although sometimes you have to tell them to hire a pro.
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Then as a Contractor you probably understand that it is not just about potential business lost, it is about concern for the result, how what you recommend is applied and safety. Have you considered all the potential code and safety issues? If applicable, are you a licensed low voltage Contractor? Will you denigrate someone who tried to help you if you misapply what is recommended and get a bad result? Is there a potential of injury performing the work and could such an injury threaten the project (and that person's dreams)? These are some of the things I think about when someone asks about help for DIY.
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As far as the music rights issue, from what my friends in the bar biz have said, you need to pay dues to whoever collects them for the music industry (Ascap?)then you can play what you wish.
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Sort of, you can pay for performance rights for that association's catalog with an annual license fee that for your size business is usually determined on a per person basis based on the rated occupancy. However, that covers only the works and artists in that association's catalog and there are multiple groups (ASCAP, BMI and SESAC).
Brad Weber
muse Audio Video
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| Re: Questions about building an audio system for a bar/restaurant [message #317262 is a reply to message #316876 ] |
Mon, 28 April 2008 08:50 |
Al Clayton
Messages: 38
Registered: July 2006
Location: Rochester, N.Y. |
Should Get Out More |
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Just wanted to weigh in on the music rights issue. You are correct in that you have to pay a fee to ASCAP/BMI if you want to play your own music. Subscribing to a music service usually ends up being a lot less expensive. Just make sure it is a commercial service otherwise you will still have to pay ASCAP/BMI. (Regular Sirius for example, does not cover it.)
Sirius, XM, Muzak, DMX all have commercial services that cover the ASCAP/BMI Fees. I know Sirius is @ $25/month. I imagine the others are about the same. (PM me if you want contact info for Sirius)
Take this seriously. ASCAP/BMI have representatives who's job it is to make sure you are in compliance. The laws are rock solid & they have never lost a court case (It rarely gets to that point.) All it takes to get them to go away is a copy of your contract with a music service!
[Updated on: Mon, 28 April 2008 08:53]
Beer is proof that God Loves us and wants us to be happy. - Ben Franklin
Horray Beer!
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