Forum Home » Sound Reinforcement » LAB Subwoofer » Achieving Clean Kick Drum
| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #303687 is a reply to message #303557 ] |
Tue, 18 March 2008 07:57   |
 Dennis Malek
Messages: 24
Registered: March 2008
Location: Houston, Texas |
Here Often |
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I understand what you say Sir.
Getting the best DJ sound system I thought would be a fairly easy thing to do as most DJ's really don't care about sound.
I just thought if I was to take a CD recording that was recorded well with good EQ kick and bass (as recognize at low volumes in automobile) and cranked it up on a quality sound system it would sound good. (I will not say "sound the same")
After all, the blend of frequencies required to provide accented kick has already been accomplished, boosted, and lay-ed down on the CD track recording.
What is required in the sound system to get it to reproduce whats already recorded on the CD and can be recognized by listening on other playback equipment?
I really like your comment about needing more talent in the monitors.
Dennis Malek
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| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #303701 is a reply to message #303687 ] |
Tue, 18 March 2008 09:34 |
peter.golde
Messages: 209
Registered: November 2004
Location: AZ |
Has No Life |
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Finding the car audio quality of sound with speakers outside the car at high spl's is a tall task. The auto's advantage is a pressurized cabin, giving a nice fat bass tone with plenty of kick.
To attempt to do this outside the car, you need a lot of boxes with a lot of power. I have found (properly designed) horn loaded boxes come the closest to the clarity and thump you get in a car, and the more I build and put up against front loaded boxes, the more I am convinced. High efficiency and high power both make for a clean system with plenty of kick. Of course, all bets are off with garbage program material, I hear a big difference on my system when dj selection is not so hot. The room, and speaker placement, and tuning, also have a huge impact on sound quality.
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer" - Frank Zappa
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| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #303756 is a reply to message #303701 ] |
Tue, 18 March 2008 12:12 |
Dennis Malek
Messages: 24
Registered: March 2008
Location: Houston, Texas |
Here Often |
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I hear ya on the auto sound in a closed cabin. I actually tune for the best bass response by opening and closing one window. Make a huge difference.
I believe I may need to go back to bass horns to get closer to the bass response I'm looking for in my DJ system.
Thanks very much for your experiences.
Dennis Malek
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| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #319652 is a reply to message #301374 ] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 12:45 |
Dennis Malek
Messages: 24
Registered: March 2008
Location: Houston, Texas |
Here Often |
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FOUND THE PROBLEM WITH MY PLAYBACK SYSTEM!!!!
First, I would like to thank all of you that helped me by provided food for thought as I worked through this problem.
I decided to first connect up my old single 18" bass horns in place of the LA128's leaving everything else alone. Sounded like crap with the same poor muddy bass response I was experiencing with the LA128's.
Next, I changed out the pre-amp modules, EQ's, Crossover, etc. and replaced with my old 1980's pre-amp modules 18 db/octive(Audioarts Engineering). Still sounded bad.
Next, I replaced the two QSC PLX-3402's with my old two QSC MX-1500A's and Presto, THE MAGIC WAS BACK! Clean sounding Bass response. Unbelievable sonic quality difference between the PLX and MX series of QSC. Now I did not have all the power that I want with the MX-1500A, but good quality bass was recognized. I purchased the PLX-3402's to get the additional power I would need for the LAS128's.
So, with that said, do my PLX-3402's need repair? Or is this the nature of the beast?
Thanks Much
Dennis
Dennis Malek
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| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #319656 is a reply to message #319652 ] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 12:50 |
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Phil Lewandowski
Messages: 237
Registered: March 2007
Location: Cleveland, OH |
Has No Life |
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| Dennis Malek wrote on Mon, 05 May 2008 13:45 |
FOUND THE PROBLEM WITH MY PLAYBACK SYSTEM!!!!
So, with that said, do my PLX-3402's need repair? Or is this the nature of the beast?
Thanks Much
Dennis
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It may sound really interesting, but there have been several threads here talking about the sound of light-weight switching power supply amps.
Maybe you are another "+1" to the group of people who still like the sound of the "old heavy iron" amps on subs. I love my RMX1850 on subs so hey... "If is sounds good... It is Good"
Take Care!
Phil
[Updated on: Mon, 05 May 2008 12:50]
"It is good to be Alive!!!"
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| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #319665 is a reply to message #319652 ] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 13:32 |
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Dave Rickard
Messages: 1658
Registered: April 2004
Location: The Wild West |
Has No Life |
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| Dennis Malek wrote on Mon, 05 May 2008 11:45 |
FOUND THE PROBLEM WITH MY PLAYBACK SYSTEM!!!!
First, I would like to thank all of you that helped me by provided food for thought as I worked through this problem.
I decided to first connect up my old single 18" bass horns in place of the LA128's leaving everything else alone. Sounded like crap with the same poor muddy bass response I was experiencing with the LA128's.
Next, I changed out the pre-amp modules, EQ's, Crossover, etc. and replaced with my old 1980's pre-amp modules 18 db/octive(Audioarts Engineering). Still sounded bad.
Next, I replaced the two QSC PLX-3402's with my old two QSC MX-1500A's and Presto, THE MAGIC WAS BACK! Clean sounding Bass response. Unbelievable sonic quality difference between the PLX and MX series of QSC. Now I did not have all the power that I want with the MX-1500A, but good quality bass was recognized. I purchased the PLX-3402's to get the additional power I would need for the LAS128's.
So, with that said, do my PLX-3402's need repair? Or is this the nature of the beast?
Thanks Much
Dennis
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I think there is something else at work here.
Have you tried reversing (un-reversing in this case) the polarity to the 3402's?
Have you tested the polarity on each individual box for miswiring?
[Updated on: Mon, 05 May 2008 13:34]
Dave
D&L Music
Dealer disclosure- Yorkville group
The wrong piece of gear, at the right price, is still the wrong piece of gear.
For every complex problem there is a solution which is simple, clean, and wrong.
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| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #319666 is a reply to message #319652 ] |
Mon, 05 May 2008 13:37 |
Mike {AB} Butler
Messages: 1798
Registered: April 2004
Location: Lynchburg, VA |
Has No Life |
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| Dennis Malek wrote on Mon, 05 May 2008 13:45 |
FOUND THE PROBLEM WITH MY PLAYBACK SYSTEM!!!!
First, I would like to thank all of you that helped me by provided food for thought as I worked through this problem.
I decided to first connect up my old single 18" bass horns in place of the LA128's leaving everything else alone. Sounded like crap with the same poor muddy bass response I was experiencing with the LA128's.
Next, I changed out the pre-amp modules, EQ's, Crossover, etc. and replaced with my old 1980's pre-amp modules 18 db/octive(Audioarts Engineering). Still sounded bad.
Next, I replaced the two QSC PLX-3402's with my old two QSC MX-1500A's and Presto, THE MAGIC WAS BACK! Clean sounding Bass response. Unbelievable sonic quality difference between the PLX and MX series of QSC. Now I did not have all the power that I want with the MX-1500A, but good quality bass was recognized. I purchased the PLX-3402's to get the additional power I would need for the LAS128's.
So, with that said, do my PLX-3402's need repair? Or is this the nature of the beast?
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AHA! Think we found your real issue! IIRC, the MX series were inverted on the inputs - meaning ring was +.. instead of tip! Here is a recent quote link for Bob Lee of QSC:
http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/318786/33571/0// /360/#msg_318786
Either that, or you're inverting the signal somewhere else.. and the MX is "making good" on the real problem!
FWIW, I have enjoyed PLX amps on subs immensely for the last 9 years, and have found them to be adequate to great, provided you use heavy gauge speaker lines, and also heavy-as-practical AC line is a big plus as well.
Seriously, I don't think you are having a PLX problem,, but rather, something else is inverted in the polarity in your system. Try putting the 3402 back in , and inverting the speaker polarity to see if that may cause a return to life as well.
Regards,
Mike Butler
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| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #319993 is a reply to message #319665 ] |
Tue, 06 May 2008 08:34 |
Dennis Malek
Messages: 24
Registered: March 2008
Location: Houston, Texas |
Here Often |
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Hello,
Yes I'm making the appropriate compensation for proper phasing as I change in and out the MX series with the reversed Ring Tip Sleeve.
Thanks
Dennis Malek
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| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #319999 is a reply to message #319666 ] |
Tue, 06 May 2008 08:40 |
Dennis Malek
Messages: 24
Registered: March 2008
Location: Houston, Texas |
Here Often |
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Hello,
I'm compansating for the Ring Tip Sleeve reversal in the MX series.
I have also checked the cabs for proper driver to driver phasing.
I believe I have checked it all. The PLX-3402's are sonic-ly poor on the low end with comparison to the MX Series. So much so, that it was easy to tell something was a miss when I first connected.
But Now does this mean they can be repaired? Or is this just the way they are and not broken?
Dennis Malek
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| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #320012 is a reply to message #319666 ] |
Tue, 06 May 2008 08:56 |
Dennis Malek
Messages: 24
Registered: March 2008
Location: Houston, Texas |
Here Often |
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Hi again,
Sorry I did not respond completely to your note.
I have been up one side and down the other testing to pin point the problem with my system.
I have confirmed speaker cab. wiring polarities. I have confirmed stereo right to left channel phasing is correct. I understand the MX Series signal input reversal on the Ring Tip Sleeve and make the appropriate compensation as I switch the amps in and out.
Changing the amp out was the last thing I did. I had done everything else previously.
Speaker cable is 12 AWG Oxygen Free Copper and matched lengths 25 FT long.
120 VAC power for the amps is stiff. Each amp has a dedicated 20 AMP breaker. I do have 12 AWG 50 FT power leads? Could this be an issue?
Please keep in mind that this is a Playback System for CD's and NOT live. I must live with the mix on the CD therefore I chose strong recordings with elevated bass sections and kick drum response for system testing. When playing the system with the PLX-03402's, the bass response is mud. Loud as hell, but the clean kick drum is missing. All I do is replace the two PLX-4302's with MX-1500A's, un-invert the tops, and Presto Clean Bass and Kick Drum.
Somebody please tell me what I'm missing?
I sincerely appreciate any and all input. In parallel, I'm contacting QSC for their take on this situation.
Dennis
Dennis Malek
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| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #320017 is a reply to message #320012 ] |
Tue, 06 May 2008 09:09 |
Mike {AB} Butler
Messages: 1798
Registered: April 2004
Location: Lynchburg, VA |
Has No Life |
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Dennis,
Thanks for all the information. All I can tell you is that I'm not convinced that the 3402 is the issue.. though, if it does have a defect, borrowing another 3402 from somewhere and testing it in the system should suss that out.
All I can tell you is that 9 years ago, I bought a PLX 1602 to replace a very decent "linear supply" amp (which was still working properly). The difference in bass performance by the 1602 was night and day better!
So, I hear from some folks that SMPS amps like the PLX don't have the bass performance that Heavier Iron and Caps units do. I guess I'm a skeptic in the other direction - I have yet to see where the PLX is dramatically poorer in bass response - unless something else is dramatically wrong..
Regards,
Mike Butler
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| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #320327 is a reply to message #320017 ] |
Wed, 07 May 2008 00:19 |
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Dave Rickard
Messages: 1658
Registered: April 2004
Location: The Wild West |
Has No Life |
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| Mike {AB} Butler wrote on Tue, 06 May 2008 08:09 |
Dennis,
Thanks for all the information. All I can tell you is that I'm not convinced that the 3402 is the issue.. though, if it does have a defect, borrowing another 3402 from somewhere and testing it in the system should suss that out.
All I can tell you is that 9 years ago, I bought a PLX 1602 to replace a very decent "linear supply" amp (which was still working properly). The difference in bass performance by the 1602 was night and day better!
So, I hear from some folks that SMPS amps like the PLX don't have the bass performance that Heavier Iron and Caps units do. I guess I'm a skeptic in the other direction - I have yet to see where the PLX is dramatically poorer in bass response - unless something else is dramatically wrong..
Regards,
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+1. I use 3002's without the issues you describe here.
Dennis, Kudos for your methodical work so far.
I agree with Mike: find a surrogate PLX to borrow and see what happens before going much further.
Dave
D&L Music
Dealer disclosure- Yorkville group
The wrong piece of gear, at the right price, is still the wrong piece of gear.
For every complex problem there is a solution which is simple, clean, and wrong.
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| Re: Achieving Clean Kick Drum [message #320808 is a reply to message #320598 ] |
Thu, 08 May 2008 08:40 |
Dennis Malek
Messages: 24
Registered: March 2008
Location: Houston, Texas |
Here Often |
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Hello Ivan
I have no special affair with MX-1500A amps, all I can say is what I'm experiencing and paying special attention to describe it accurately.
I'm not dreaming, I'm not tripp'in, I'm not making the news, just reporting it exactly as it happens.
Now I realize sound is sound and peoples ears hear sound differently. But I do believe, any one of you standing side by side with me listen to this will say the same things I say hands down. I don't want this situation. I paid $1300.00 for these two 3402's and I want the darn things to sound good.
I just don't know where to go next? I guess I will replace the speaker wire, eliminate the 100 FT pre-amp snake, and look for a surrogate PLX-3402 on my next tests in search for the solution.
I have not tried running both subs on one PLX in stereo mode and see if it changes anything?
Thanks for the help.
Dennis
Dennis Malek
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